Although, I am ordained as an Evangelist/Missionary, my views are very different than many women in ministry in that, I do not think God intended or has called women to be as PASTORS over a church. I'm not speaking about His call on women in ministry or the spreading of the gospel, because there are many examples of women in ministry in the Old and New Testament.
My view and reasoning, is based on what is in Ephesians chapter5, and God's setup of the original family in the beginning with Adam and Eve over the garden (home) which is like unto the church. He put man in charge of the garden, just as he put man in charge of the home.
On the other hand, I feel, if there is not a man to be in this position, and a woman minister is available, she is able to stand in until a man is there to take over. I base this on Genesis chapter 29, wherein Raechel is recorded as being the first woman shepherdess tending sheep, up UNTIL Jacon came , then she turned it over to him. Same principle...
God has an order of roles and postions for the man and the woman, and the unity of marriage is compared and symbolic to the church. And just as He never intended nor purposed in the beginning nor called or placed women to be heads of households, He never called or place a woman head of His church.
When the man is out of place, it is reason for the woman to take the lead and be head of her household, BUT, this was not in God's original painting of the family. When a man and woman are married they are one therefore, if the man is the pastor of a church, would it not go to reason that his wife is co-pastor along side of him? Therefore, she would be UNDER his covering yet, she still does not have authority OVER her husband OR the church. She is only CO-pastor with him.Just as she would be co-head of the household along side of her husband in the home.
What your thoughts about women who have the title of PASTOR over the church?
Do you think the SBC is wrong for their actions in this case?
Baptists to Cut Ties with Ga. Church Over Female Pastor
By Audrey Barrick|Christian Post Reporter
A more than 95-year-old church in Atlanta may be ousted from the Southern Baptist Convention over a woman pastor.
The Rev. Mimi Walker has been serving as co-pastor at Druid Hills Baptist Church with her husband, the Rev. Graham Walker, since 2003. But earlier this month, leaders of the Georgia Baptist Convention recommended cutting ties with the local congregation.
"It seems sad that they decided to go backwards in time," Mimi Walker told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "I'm not sure what the value is of trying to go back in time when women were held in subservience."
According to the Southern Baptist Convention's 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, the office of pastor is "limited to men as qualified by Scripture."
In keeping with the confession statement, the state convention voted on March 16 to declare Druid Hills "not a cooperating church."
It added, "The GBC has never been opposed to women serving in ministry positions other than pastor," according to Associated Baptist Press.
This is the second time the Georgia Baptist Convention has moved toward severing ties with a local church over a female pastor. Last year, the convention voted to end its relationship with First Baptist Church in Decatur over the congregation's decision to bring a woman to the pulpit. Julie Pennington-Russell became senior pastor of First Baptist in 2007.
"I�ve seen women in the ministry and worked with women in Presbyterian and Methodist churches," Walker told AJC. "They are moving forward in the process of keeping women involved in the ministry and moving toward equality.
"Our disagreement is related to how you interpret Scripture."
Amid ongoing conflicts over female pastors, some Southern Baptist leaders have made clarifications to what they believe.
Dr. Richard Land, president of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said the Baptist Faith and Message does not state that "women are to be subservient to men." They are of equal worth before God, he stated earlier.
And though women are gifted for service in the church, Land says the New Testament teaches that "a woman is not to usurp authority over the man" and thus women are not to serve as pastors.
The Georgia Baptist Convention, which has roughly 3,600 churches and is one of 41 state conventions throughout the country, will vote in November on the recommendation to sever ties.
Where is the requirement to be a man, the word in one scripture makes mention of a bishop as a man but you would have to assume, it is only men, Show me the exclusion to women.
For you benefit Walter, I notice you like label believers, where is that in scripture. they are referred to Chrasamatic's or Word of Faith
God ordains Eve in Gen3:16 that her husband shall rule over her (rule not dominate...:laugh:)
But apart from the fact if woman can or cannot be a pastor. There is, in my opinion, a very practical problem as women sooner or later want to have children and become a fulltime engaged mother. Also, it is the woman who mostly takes care of the parents (in law). All these caring tasks have proven to be extremely important in our society but will become stressful if they have to be combined with pastorship in a congregation.
However I think that every pastor should appoint one woman in his council for strictly female pastoral issues (abuse for instance).
Walter, what you gave IS NOT the definition for pastor, you stated the REQUIRMENTS and CHARACTER of such a man who desires or seeks to be a BISHOP as described in I Timothy chapter 3. The word for PASTOR in the Greek is POIMEN, according to Strong.
Again, I'm not arguring that women are called to be pastors, but then again, as I've said, God can do as He please with whomever He please. He makes His own rules, and can make exceptions or changeS TO His rule according to His will, plans and purposes without asking you, me or anyone for permission to do so... which you can find throughout the Bible, He works like that because His name is GOD.
He is also a God of order, and can at will change ORDER according to what He pleases to fulfill His plans, purposes and at His own request, according to His need for a woman or man or even an animal. I mean, since when is the last time you heard a donkey speaking?... God did that didn't He?... heeeelllloooo...:zzzz: You cann't put God is a box of your choice.
Now accoring to the definition we have here of the word PASTOR in english and the Greek. Are you saying that God can't ordain a woman to fulfill this role along side of her husband as CO-PASTOR in the church with him. Surely, she is capable of fulfilling these responsibilities as a Co-pastor with her husband. And are they not as ONE?
As I said, which most people and even pastors never acknowledge and some never knew that Rachel was a SHEPHERDESS tending her fathers sheep up UNTIL Jacob came, this ha always been over looked. Because Spritually, this would let me know that the position of being a co-pastor with her husband would be a part of the husband and wife being one plan of God, IF THE WOMAN IS ALSO CALLED IN MINISTRY. It also lets me know that although it was not God's plan for women to be over His church, if a woman is available to be used by God, He will use her mightily for Hid purpose.
You're right every man in ministry isn't called to be a pastor, just like every man or woman is not called to be a wife or husband. But, if the husband and wife are BOTH called in the ministry BY GOD, they become ONE in ministry in Christ and the things of God before th church. God had a reason why He did not appoint women to do many things in the church, because of the hard work of the positions, but it was not because she was not capable. It was I would think, becuase in the creation of man first, God purpose that MAN should be the care taker of the woman and family and of His church. Being a Pastor is an office in the church and if there is an opening, the person who is most qualified is to fill it. Being a copastor to a husband who is PASTOR, if the woman is called by God, fulfills God's call for the couple to be as One in mind, heart, soul, and spirit in ALL things.
Yes they are different words but the meaning is the same. A pastor is an Elder, a teaching Elder if you will. A Bishop is an Elder. I will address this later as it is late.
Everything you wrote was from human reasoning and still did not address the "Husband of one wife" which demonstrates Gender specific position. This forbids a woman from being in any of the positions of Pastor, Elder or Bishop. God cannot contradict His written word or change it. He cannot decide to now make a woman a Pastor because if He were to do that then God would be made a liar by contradicting His written word. If God ever intended for a woman to be a Pastor or co-Pastor then HE would have so said it in the NEW Testament. There is also nothing in Prophesy for the last days where God would allow a woman to Pastor or co-Pastor. Your arguments and suppositions are without scriptural support.
1 Tim2: 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,
10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
Here we several things about what a woman cannot do and one of them is to TEACH or have authority over a man. This of course is within the context of a church. So if a woman is not able to do these things then how is she to Pastor and have to keep silent and not teach in the presence of men in the church?
1 Tim 2:1 � This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, {Literally overseer} he desires a good work.
A bishop then MUST BE blameless, the HUSBAND of one wife, temperate, sober�minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
How can a Husband be a woman Phillip? It says MUST BE. This is in the imperative, a commandment.
Oh Phillip I use labels properly as the Charismatic and Word of Faith movement churches are well know for taking the position of women being Pastors. It is not exclusive to them but predominant.
There are two things. Those who teach and those who are an example.
The first task is obviously for men but the latter is for all of us and that includes women.
Very much to the surprise of mostly men, women are of extreme importance in the teaching, not by the talk but by the walk so to speak.
If Tamar would not have "taken" Jude...
If Ruth would not have gone with Naomi....
If the mother of Moses would not have put him in a basket...
If the Farao�s daugther would not have taken that basket out...
By the way, Moses� sister Mirjam was a priest.
Debora even governed the people of Israel
If Abigail would not have spoken to David on behalf of her husband...
Well I can go on and on.
My point is, you men insist on having the talk. Fine. Just one quick look around the world and we can all see that you have utterly failed in pastoring this earth, the church and many many families...
But there is something like the walk... and Jesus compared it with a tree who carries fruit.
So I dare say that it is by the fruit we know what tree we are barking at...
Well Walter according to you a lot of women are caught in sin
But we will go by the word.
How many times are you going to try and say woman can't speak in the church, or to the church. Of course you can find scriptures that prove otherwise, so go back and ask for help from the lord to understand that verse and verses.
Walter that does not fit either to this truth:Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Freinds I have been busy the last few days and missed this. A few pointers that you can not over look.Paul in his writings speaks to Tabatha A woman pastor who died and was brought back to life.What of Lydia?A pastor of a church.Our souls are neither male nor female. Please look at the text correctly my friends. What of the 7 daughters of Philip, they were all prophetess? What of Debra she was a judge,old testament? Did not a prophetess seek out the baby Jesus. It is a fact that on occassion a women are in leadership. So, before you say it is not so friends remember god never said a woman can not lead.
Oh, that statement about women not speaking in church was for a reason.many non jews were getting saved and some churches had a problem with women gabbing during the service and being a disruption.Paul had to enforce a line of order to keep control.
Walter, to say that any woman in the role of a pastor is a liar is just so wrong.God never says that.Please examine that train of thought. On occassion god does choose women to lead.That is not our call to debate or judge. :peace: I think you are out of line using words that were that strong.My examples show that I am right.
I will address your "Husband of one wife" phrase that you and others especially, men who think that God would never call or use a woman in church ministry. They use this phrase, which is one of the requirements and qualifications Paul has given out to Timothy and Titus for men seeking to be bishops, pastors, elders, or deacons. And again, this has nothing to do with women in leadership positions in ministry in the church. Most women in minsitry and many who are not in ministry meet these requirements and qualifications more than many men who are in the pulpit...so there.
Nevertheless, As I've stated, God never intended for women to be over His church, just as He never intended for women to be over the household. He appointed this position for men ONLY, but when men are MISPLACED in the church and OUT OF PLACE in the home, GOD WIL REPLACE the home and the church with the next best thing to being there. Women end up running the home, just as many women are running the church as pastors.
Walter, if you believe that God is soveregin, then what's your problem with understanding He can do whatever He pleases without your permission? What part of being sovereign don't you understand when it comes to GOD?...just becaue YOU don't like it, you must know You can't order God's steps, HE IS THE ONE WHO ORDERS YOUR STEPS.
Here are the QUALIFICATIONS AND REQUIRMENTS OF A BISHOP/PASTOR/DEACON/ELDER IN THE CHURCH
I Timothy chapter 3:
This is a faithful saying: If a MAN desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.
(1) A bishop then must be BLAMELESS,
(2)THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE,
(3) TEMPERATE, SOBER-MINDED,
(4) OF GOOD BEHAVIOR,
(5) HOSPITABLE,
(6) ABLE TO TEACH,
(7) NOT GIVEN TO WINE,
(8) NOT VIOLENT,
(9) NOT GREEDY FOR MONEY,
(10) BUT GENTLE,
NOT QUARRELSOME,
(11) NOT COVETOUS,
(12) ONE WHO RULES HIS OWN HOUSE WELL, HAVING HIS CHILDREN IN SUBMISSION WITH ALL REVERANCE, (because if a MAN does not know how to rule HIS OWN HOUSE, how can he take care of the hosue of God?)..good question:yay: ..
(13) NOT A NOVICE (new convert), lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
(14) Moreover, he MUST HAVE A GOOD TESTIMONY AMONG THOSE WHO ARE OUTSIDE, (nonchristians in the community must also view him as being a good man/person and notin the world).
So Walter, do you meet any of these requirments and/or the qualitifcations to be a bishop, pastor, or elder, or deacon in the church? How many of the requirements and qualitifications DO YOU MEET? OR can you fulfill in the leadership positions in the church. Outside of being the husband of one wife, but the wife of one husband many women can and do meet these requairement and qualifications. Although I don't feel a woman should hold such positions as bishop or elder, but as pastors, deaconess, co-pastors YES, IF she is called to replace a man who is not in POSTION.And BTW, does this exclude women being disciples? hope not...
"HUSBAND ONE WIFE", there are many men who are in church leadership positions as pastors, bishops, elders, and deacons, who don't fulfill this requirement nor meet this qualification. So what part of this Husband of ONE WIFE do you want me to address?
