In dealing with the issue of a Christian being able to "Forfeit" their salvation is made abundantly clear throughout the New Testament. So let's also deal with a particular passage which I believe demonstrates this concept as well.
The Seven letters of Revelation were written to Seven literal Christian Churches, not "church ages". Jesus had good things to say about these churches and bad things to say as well. Each one irregardless of their praise or rebuke were given a warning. Each one was told of the need to "Overcome" if they expected to inherit various things including eternal life. These letters were written to Christians, real Christians, Born Again Believers.
Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
What happens if one does not "Overcome"? They don't get to eat from the "Tree of Life".
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They will be hurt by the Second Death.
Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except he who receives it .
What happens to those who do not overcome? They don't get to eat of the "Hidden Manna".
Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not receive power over the Nations.
****Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.****
What happens to those who do not overcome? Their names are blotted out from the Book of Life! They Forfeited their salvation!
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not become a new pillar, they do not get God's name written on them nor Jesus' new name?
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not get to sit down with Jesus on His Throne!
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. NKJV
Here we see Jesus making a very clear statement that it is entirely possible to remove someone from the Book of Life. To be in the Book of Life one must first be a true believer and that is obvious or else they would not be in the Book of Life to begin with. So if Jesus is warning CHRISTIANS of this very real possibility then the idea of a Christian "Forfeiting" their salvation, committing Apostasy is no doubt very real.
The False Teachings of "Once Saved Always Saved" and "Calvinism" flies in the face of these Scriptures, among others.
I realize what you are saying, but you are still missing the point. In English, we have no choice, pronouns are either 1st or 3rd person, which I could still argue was approprieste in this sentence structure, by the way.
However in Greek we have the option of using words that are neither. Any word that is all three, masculine, feminine, and nueter, can be used indiscriminately in sentences such as this. The purpose for this is obvious when you look at it, it is to show that there is nothing anywhere that could accomplish this task.
If you look at the Greek word again you will see it is not a numbered list such as you would have if there were several different meanings. When it is displayed like this it is to make that word easier to understand. It is telling you that there is no English equivalent and that this word means all of these things. If it were dependent on how it was used in the sentence, it would be preceded by a number and letter.
I'd like to chime in on this but I think I know better. I have a suggestion for all of you that are truly interested in this subject. I am studying a book right now called The Kingdom, Power and Glory by Chuck and Nancy Missler. Whether or not you agree with them on everything they teach, this book is very enlightening in regards to the "Overcomers", Eternal Security and the Millennial Kingdom. I highly recommend it.
www.kingshighway.org will get you to the book. Get it. Read it. Get back to me.
By the way just so you all know. I'm a Pan-Millennialist. I believe it will all pan out in the end! :ROFL:
I just finished responding to you and laid out the rules of Greek and demonstrated the proper usage of the grammar and then got involved in a conversation and then when I went to post it, the site booted me off and I lost everything! LOLOL I will redue it tonight after I get home.it just gets to be too much typing on a Blackberry.
Let the beating of the dead horse begin in 5...4...3....2...
This topic has been debated for centuries and there has never been a "final" conclusion drawn and as long as we're on earth, there will never be a definite answer.
If you (and I mean all of you) are trying to convince a new Christian to believe what you believe, it certainly isn't going to work when you're talking Greek, grammatical structure, etc. That is going to make them either yawn or think, "Huh?" and move on to the next section. You're only debating yourselves and we've seen all the other times that this topic (along with baptism) has been posted, it leads nowhere. It gets into a WAY too deep, sometimes heated, discussion that produces nothing.
If a new member asks about this topic or a few others that are highly debated, that's fine - answer as you believe. But why bring this up constantly when we know what the end result will be: no agreement reached?
Let me explain how the Greek works and why it cannot include yourself within the context as "no one" or "anyone".
John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall "anyone" (tis)"snatch"(harpazo) "them"(autos) out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and "no one" is able to "snatch" "them" out of My Father's hand.NKJV
Pronouns can be First person, Second person or Third person.
*First Person refers to the person speaking ( "I", "we").
*Second person refers to the person being spoken to ( you").
*Third person refers to all others ("he","she","it","they",etc.)
The Greek word for "anyone" is "TIC" or pronounced "tis." Verse 28. This is what appears in the Majority Text. This word is a pronoun that is Nominative Singular Masculine. Right next to it is another personal pronoun.. "THEM" or in Greek..."autos" pronounced "aw-tos". It is Accusative Plural Neuter. Both are Third Person.
When ever you have two pronouns back to back they can never be the same as both being plural or both being singular. One can be one but the other must be different. It was my error in stating that "no one" was plural. I was not thinking so thank you for actually helping me make my case stronger. But they are without question, Third Person.
So in other words you cannot include yourself within the word "no one" or "anyone" as they are Third Person singular.
An additional problem you will have is the verb "SNATCH".("Harpazo" in Greek) This verb and it's relation to the personal pronouns forbids "YOU" from being able to pluck yourself or "snatch" yourself. Those verbs require an exterior force exclusive of yourself. So the translators got this one correct after all and as such the Grammar clearly demonstrates, while fully supported by the Greek, that while a person is secure in Christ in that no external force can take you away or remove you from His hand, it does not preclude you or me or anyone from walking away from Him and committing Apostasy.
I would like to see you address this other scripture I posted previously. You said you do not see how a Christian could ever walk away from Christ or similar words to that effect. Here is how Paul described this process.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF,...... in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
Let's examine some key points here.
1) This passage is clearly addressed to the "Brethern". These are Christians. Jewish Christians but Christians nevertheless.
2) The warning is concerning Christians possibly developing an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" and if so, their departing from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you are with God to begin with. How does this occur?
3)" lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". Here we see that staying in a sinful lifestyle can harden a Christian's heart. That is what sin does. It hardens a person's heart to a point that they can fall back to a state of UNbelief and depart from God. This is what Apostasy is. A total rejection of Christ BY a Christian believer. Hardening is something that does not occur over night. It takes time but for each individual that time will vary.
4) 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Here is the condition placed upon our salvation. We are made partakers of Christ, ..."IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. What does that mean? It means that as long as we continue to believe in Christ, then we will remain a partaker of Christ.
Thank you for your opinion however I don't think you should be making an assumption of what a new believer will want to study. Also Grammar whether Greek or English is critical in understanding what you are reading. If a person doesn't have basic grammatical skills then how will they really know how to properly interpret the scriptures? I learned a long time ago that if you do not understand grammatical structure then you are placing yourself at the teachings of those who may be bias in their commentaries and mislead people.
I also beg to differ with you regarding knowing which position is correct or not. Yes this subject has been debated before and no doubt it will be debated over and over again just like all topics will be. But you see Lynn, not everyone on this board is a long time member and sometimes new people may come on here that are interested in these discussions. After all this is a Bible Study Forum is it not? There are different boards for different types of discussions and so people post to whatever their hearts desires and I for one would never want to squash whatever is on someone's heart to discuss no matter how many times they want to. Why would you?
We also cannot grow unless we get deeper into God's word. We all have to be willing to stretch ourselves and get out of our comfort zones.
We all have liberty to discuss what we want. We have liberty to read what we want and we have liberty to not post and not read. I would prefer to see people contribute or ask questions about various topics rather than being critical about the subject matter which doesn't edify anyone. Like the old saying goes. "If you don't like what's on the channel, change it to another channel".
One more thing. while you are correct that the subject of Once Saved Always Saved as been debated for centuries, it was only from 1500s onward when John Calvin invented "Perseverance of the Saints" where OSAS came from. Prior to Calvin, no one ever taught, believed or discussed anywhere in Church history, OSAS. So it is a modern man made theological invention not supported by any clear exegeted scripture.
You said: One more thing. while you are correct that the subject of Once Saved Always Saved as been debated for centuries, it was only from 1500s onward when John Calvin invented "Perseverance of the Saints" where OSAS came from. Prior to Calvin, no one ever taught, believed or discussed anywhere in Church history, OSAS. So it is a modern man made theological invention not supported by any clear exegeted scripture.
You mean of the church fathers obviously, because Jesus Himself taught it, as did Paul.
Now, as for the word you used for no man that you say comes from the majority text, you better look again. Wrong word, brother. But yes, if that was the word used there, you would be correct. I think the word you used is used in the NU text. That is the closest I could find.
Please see my previous post for the Strongs translation, I will post the Thayer here. Thayer, like Strongs, uses only the majority text. Well, Strongs mostly uses the majority text. Depending on the KJV.
G3762
οὐδείς
oudeis
Thayer Definition:
1) no one, nothing
Part of Speech: pronoun
A Related Word by Thayer�s/Strong�s Number: from G3761 and G1520
dear folks, linnie has a right to discuss her opinion here..
and walter is right in that we may discuss a topic as many times as we like.. we may hash and rehash em many times over the years.
. ya never know when that one little piece of information may make ya go woah, let me go back and check out why i believe what i believe again..plus new folks are readin these forums all the time..
and you both stand correct in that
as walter says we all have come to our own conclusions as to what we believe to be correct..
and linnie is correct in that the church as a whole have not all come to the same final conclusion..
