"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."John 1:17.
and he want us to follow it as it is said
"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness." 1 John 3:4. Salvation does not come by observing the law. It comes after salvation and as an urge of the Holy Spirit.
"The law is all the books in OT, not j ust the Torah"
I think that Thunder has eloquently explained that the "law" is accepted by the majority as the first five books written by Moses but you have required an explaination of:
In the Law it is written:
� With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me, 1 Cor 14:21
This verse is referring to the "gift of speaking in tongues" which Pau has cross reference to Is 28:11-12
Daniel, I dont believe that this has anything to do with the topic at hand and Im sure that Thunder will be able to answer this much more understandable that I but I will take a first swipe -
First - Isahia is a very difficult Book - Second - the chapter that Paul is referring to in Isaiah is about the judgement ready to befall Ephraim if they dont listen to God (unvelievers). How will this judgement happen? By the takeover of them by the Assyrians - Isaiah is being a little sarcastic here by saying that if they dont heed the warning of God that those 11 "with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people" ie Assyrians
Paul refers to this in the same rather derogatory manner that Isahia used about those unbelievers who speak in tongues.
Oh, I should add that the "law" that was referred to was Israels disobedience of "thou shalt not commit idolatry" If they didnt stop the idoltary then those who speak in "tongues" that they didnt understand would be ruling over them (Israels take over by the Assyrians and then the take over of Judah by Babylon)
I can see how you are trying to point out that the "law" is referred to throughout the whole Bible but we all need to adhere to "context" in our study and search.
Oh darn! Correction ... not unbeleivers in speaking in tongues ..i expressed myself incorrectly ... I need to keep in context .. I shouldnt have said unbelievers but the "improper use of tonges" OK ..I'm done ...lol ..
I also think we are on the same page with the Law. I am generally frustrated by Christians who think that everything written in the OT is "the Law" and does not apply to them because we are "under grace". So it is easy for them to pick and choose what they want to believe in the writings of the OT. I just want to make sure we understand the difference between between being "under grace" and obeying the laws of God as opposed to depending on the Law for our justification.
You asked - "Lord Supper, so what is the difference you are trying to point out. Sorry, I cannot understand."
This is an example of misunderstanding the NT because of the failure to either understand or properly apply the OT Scriptures. The Church teaches that Jesus instituted "The Lord's Supper", or Communion at "the Last Supper" This is absolutely not true. Communion is an invention of the Papacy. It is the adoption of an ancient pagan ritual that was a part of Babylonian sun worship and had nothing to do with Jesus or the Jews. Jesus is not instituting anything but telling his disciples to continue observing Passover in remembrance of his redemptive sacrifice when they drink from the Cup of Redemption and that His body was broken in their place which is symbolized in the breaking of a specific piece of bread. This wasn't explained because the Jews who received the Gospels would have understood exactly what was going on.
Most theologians are aware of this but won't correct the tradition and remove it from their practices because it is such a deeply steeped tradition in the Church. Instead they justify it with errant doctrine.
My point is that this is a case when Christians need to understand the Jewish traditions and the symbolism in the Scriptures in order to understand what is going on or being said in the NT. There is an underlying Christian thought that everything Jesus said and did was for the Church but it was not. Jesus lived in the OT times. It was for the Jews. If you don't understand the Jews then it is easy to make errant assumptions about the NT. The NT and the Church age didn't start until Pentecost.
dear folks, i personally dont see anything wrong with say keeping the sabbath or tithing or taking communion if thats what ya wanna do.. i believe its a heart thing ,its what youre doin from the heart towards GOD and i believe some are also loving thy neighbor as thyself....
dear folks, since i made that last statement i also would like to say that i agreed with walter on alot of what he had to say on this subject before..
there are some laws that we arent to follow now..
lets say i believe one was if someone didnt keep the sabbath and worked on it they were stoned to death? correct me if im wrong on that.. i dont have the verses right before me now.. and the stoning to death of a child that was disobedient i believe it was.. and thats just a coupe of them.. there were so many .. i think someone said 600 and some laws..
can ya see how this doesnt follow loving thy neighbor as thyself?
so JESUS tells us that the 2 greatest commandments are have no other GODS before HIM,, loving god with all your heart mind body and soul i believe it were.. and to love thy neighbor as thyself.. and on those two hang all the law and prophets.. thats not a quote but a summary from my ole memory hehe..
so before ya do summin think about whether it goes against this or not.. if it does then its prolly sin and wrong to do..
and i also believe like walter that its ok to have church on sunday.. and if im wrong for sayin it is ,, then GODS gonna scold me good when i stand before HIM.. but thats what i believe..
i also believe its ok to work on the sabbath if you got something thats gotta be done.. to do good works also
as i remember JESUS healing on the sabbath and also statements about if your ox was in the mire youd get him out ect..
I agree with you on everything. I don't think we need to be concerned with which day we keep as a Sabbath and we should keep in mind that God did not set up the Sabbath as a day of worship but as a day of rest. I believe His design is that worship is done through obedience and reverence toward Him on a daily basis. As human beings we have ritualized something that wasa not meant to be ritualized. I think there is plenty of science to support the idea that a day of rest for people every week is very healthy. Also the Sabbaths for the fields has been proven very beneficial so resting on the seventh day or year is a basic principle and not intended to be an act of religion.
I also agree that it probably doesn't matter if Christians practice Communion because the Passover is not part of the Gentile tradition and it is at least an acknowledgment and memory of our Savior's sacrifice. I'm not suggesting that we not do it. I'm simply pointing out the way it is taught and the original reason it became a practice.
If we truly love God I think it is a matter of how our heart cries out to Him because of the love He shows us. We show our love by our obedience to Him and the manner in which we imitate Him. I always look at my relationship with Him as that of a child. How do children show they love their parents? They know how to show it because of the way it is expressed to them by their parents and they learn to communicate their love in the same manner it is shown to them.
I think need to clarify something hear. God only made 2 covenant with us that is the covenant of work with Adam and the covenant of grace with Adam after he sinned. The covenant with Abraham, Moses, etc. are all covenant of grace. Why? Because once Adam sinned, he should died that day, yet by grace he lived.
Regarding Sabbath and stoning. It is still a sin not to observe Sabbath, just the way of punishment is different. The ultimate judgment is still the same, i.e. death, just the method of dying is different. And stoning is in conflict with love thy neighbor, no it doesn't. Loving thy neighbor means helping him out when there is a need, concern him, etc. again all this are written in the Law. Not condoning his sin. If your neighbor sinned, are you going to keep quiet? If the Law said he must die, do you have other choice? Don't get me wrong, this does not mean that I agreed that stoning can be done today. The logic runs like this: If you are a Christian, you sin and you repent, God forgives, if you are not a Christian, punishment is at the end of time. *I am not saying those who claim to be Christian. For those are not Christian.
While other 9 commandments are nature of God, Sabbath is for the nature of man, for God works every day (in the book of Gospel, somewhere). The rest meant in the OT is rest from creation not providence.
I agreed with Thunder that we should know the background before any interpretation. Speaking of this, I know this is not the topic here, but gentleness means obeying God's word putting hope in God (Psalm 37:9-11).
