I believe you have misunderstood what James was trying to teach. He was saying that true faith will result in works. Abraham believed and it was accounted to him as faith. Believed what? That Isaac was the seed and that even if he sacrificed him, God would give him back somehow.
James was saying that anyone can sit around and say they have faith, but true faith will result in action, or works. If the work does not stem from true faith, it is useless and a waste of time
The law is for unbelievers, to show them the error of their ways, once one has accepted Christ, they do not need the law, they have the Holy Spirit to guide them. It is the same with titheing. I don't know many Christians who don't at least tithe, and most do much more than that. But they do not do it out of obligation, but out of love.
you: James was saying that anyone can sit around and say they have faith, but true faith will result in action, or works. If the work does not stem from true faith, it is useless and a waste of time
me: I agreed, this is what I meant, which I wrote in the previous post
"Because your faith is reflected on what you do."
You: The law is for unbelievers, to show them the error of their ways, once one has accepted Christ, they do not need the law, they have the Holy Spirit to guide them.
me: I disagree.
Reasons:
1. book of James and 1 John were written for believers. In both book, it urge Christians to obey the law.
2. Jesus said if you love me obey my commandments
3. How Holy Spirit guide us? He guide us by teaching you all things and reminding us of everything I have said to us (ie his commandments and the Law).
4. What is the law that God promises in Hebrews 8:10?
you: But they do not do it out of obligation, but out of love.
Me: correct and Jesus also said if you love me obey my commandments. "Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." "Matthew 22:21.
I stopped the debate because, while we agree on many issues, where we don't falls along denominational lines, and I know better than to go there. It only causes hard feelings.
I still think that if you're not trying to do everything you can to please God....whether it's required or not...then at some point you're putting yourself first...and that's dangerous...in my opinion. Not suggesting I do everything I can....just saying...we should be trying.
Traditionally, that is where the tithes went. Does it HAVE to go to a church? I don't believe so. The way I see it is... it's God's money, so He is the final say as to where it goes. If you feel the Holy Spirit leading/guiding you towards giving it elsewhere, then who am I or anyone else to stop you. That's between you and God.
"Can you donate to a charity?"
(See above)
"What about if you know someone that's in financial need, can you give your tithe to them?"
This, also, is the kind of thing that God will either guide you towards or away from.
"And I'd just like to know your thoughts about it, in general."
Well... I don't like to use the 10% ruler for 1 main reason... I believe too often people use it as an EXACT measurement for what they tithe... and they tithe because "they have to". Then, they don't feel guilty because "I gave the 10%... what more do you want?" Someone else brought up the scripture talking about motives behind giving. Being a cheerful giver. I believe the 10% mark is supposed to be used as a rough guess so as to keep rich people from giving just as much as those who are less fortunate. (like the story of the widow who only gave a coin, but was honored for it) Me personally? I give my tithe to my church 3 weeks a month. The other week, I give it to an organization that helps children in 3rd world countries. How much do I give? As much as I can and sometimes more. It is ONLY when I set aside money and find it's not 10% that I use that ruler. Does God not approve of this? Well, obviously, I don't think so. (or I wouldn't be doing it. lol) In the end, when I am tried by fire, I will be held accountable. I guess we'll see then. Awesome topic, T. Thanks.
I understand that statement concerning faith, Abraham's tithing was just that his faith in action, his faith to tithe came from the lord. The Mosiac coveanant has nothing to do with tithing.
Gracemae, like you, I have noticed since I started tithing that He really does take care of matters, financial and otherwise!! Praise God!! :applause:
And Mark, like you said, if it's giving to God, how can we go wrong?
Garrett, I give my tithe to my church mostly, but there have been a few times when I prayed and asked God if I could give His money to a friend in need and a charity called Camp Rainbow. Those people are awesome!! :D They run a camp for one week a year where children with medical problems and/or disabilities can go and sortof forget they have those problems!! They supply them with all the medical treatments they'll need, a full medical staff, all the activities kids love to do and all at NO COST!! Plus, the parents get to rest peacefully knowing their children are in great hands!! I learned about it during a radio-thon; they had kids and parents giving their testimonies about how wonderful it is. One little girl that was in a wheelchair was so uplifted that by the end of the week, she was pushing the wheelchair!! Praise God!! And the whole organization is God-based!! One little girl actually got saved at camp!! So, after praying about it, the money they were asking for was more than my tithe, but I didn't care! God said YES so I did it!! How could you say no?!
So, if you feel you need to donate some money for a wonderful cause Camp Rainbow.org!! They also take applications for volunteer counselors! I think I'm going to try to go if I can get off from work. It'd have to be a life-changing experience!
1 These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess�as long as you live in the land.
...
11 Then to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name�there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the LORD. 12 And there rejoice before the LORD your God, you, your sons and daughters, your menservants and maidservants, and the Levites from your towns, who have no allotment or inheritance of their own."
Deuteronomy 14
22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.
luke 20:25 And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
luke 21:1-4 1 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. 3 So He said, "Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; 4 for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had."
mark 12:41-44 41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."
i take it from the first verse there that we are to give GOD what is GODS.... well what is it we can have that GOD would want us to give now ? since JESUS took the place for any sacrifices we could give.. no more burnt offerings or calves or lambs as an offering etc.. ..
yet our first fruits is what i believe we are to give to GOD.. i believe thats what HE wants from us.. it was asked for as shown in some earlier verses folks have shown..
i believe we are to give back to GOD out of our abundance to help those less fortunate and are in need ...now does that mean exactly 10% i believe thats what is expected..i dont think you can go wrong giving that amount..
as we see in the verses above JESUS was watching those putting in to the treasury... and HE seen folks giving out of the goodness of their hearts.. not begrudginly..
and youll see that those who had been given alot were giving alot.. then along comes this poor widow..
well she put in her two mites, what l was all she had.. she gave..
now some may of made fun of her for putting in so little.. not JESUS HE seen what she had given for what it was..
does it got to be 10% of your first fruits? i say what does your heart say to ya?
dear ky , if it was me id say your giving to charity could count the same as tigheing.. spelling? hehe
im reminded of a woman who gave her testimony one time.. and she told how she went to church and she didnt have any money at all.. totally broke..
and when the offering plate came around to her ,well she d seen how everyone else was giving and she wanted to give something to GOD too .. she had no money but in her pocket was a button.. so she put that button in the offering plate..
that lady gave all that she had to give as well..
and now she has plenty to give and does so to help the needy.. praise GOD .. its a heart thing... we should in many cases pinch ourselves that we may supply the nessetties of others.. this is loving our neighbors as ourselves..
