Ok! Here's something I'd like to talk about some more...for a couple reasons. First reason! It's what I believe. Second reason! I would like it tested by the bible warriors on here. This is the bible battleground after all, why not put my beliefs to the test? I could be wrong, and if I am I'd really like to know.
Here's the scriptures I believe support my belief that when people die, they are in an unconscious state until the second coming of Christ. I honestly don't know absolutely, but it seems like the weight of scripture at least supports an unconscious state after death until the second return of Christ. There are some in heaven, like Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are the only ones I know of for sure. There were many resurrected at the resurrection of Jesus. But I believe as a whole...most of God's followers and all the wicked are resting in the grave until the judgment. So if its ok, I'd like to see the scriptures that contradict my views and support your views...because honestly, I could just be searching the bible for what I want to see.
*1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
* Genesis 2:7. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Body (form) + Breath of life/God (n�phach /puff) = a living being, or Soul (Hebrew נפש nephesh[8])
* Genesis 3:19. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou returnest unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
* Genesis 18:27-28. "27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes: "
* 2 Samuel 7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom."
* Job 3:17. "There [the grave] the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest."
* 1 Kings 2:10. "10So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David."
* 1 Kings 11:21. "21And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers,"
* 1 Kings 11:43. "43And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father:"
* 1 Kings 14:20. "20And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers"
* 1 Kings 14:31. "31And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David."
* 1 Kings 15:8. "8And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David:"
* 1 Kings 15:24. "24And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father:"
* 1 Kings 16:6. "6So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah:"
* 1 Kings 16:28. "28So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria:"
* 1 Kings 22:40. "40So Ahab slept with his fathers;"
* 1 Kings 22:50. "50And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father:"
* 2 Kings 8:24. "24And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David:"
* 2 Kings 10:35. "35And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria."
* 2 Kings 13:9. "9And Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria:"
* 2 Kings 14:22. "22He built Elath, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers."
* 2 Kings 14:29. "29And Jeroboam slept with his fathers, even with the kings of Israel;"
* 2 Kings 15:7. "7So Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David:"
* 2 Kings 15:22. "22And Menahem slept with his fathers;"
* Job 4:17. "17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"
* Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be."
* Job 7:10. "10He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more."
* Job 14:10-12. "10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."
* Job 19:25-28. "25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
* Job 34:14-16. "14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."
* Psalms 6:5. "For in death there is no remembrance of thee:in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
* Psalm 13:3 "Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;"
* Psalm 90:5 "You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-"
* Psalms 146:3-4. "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whome there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
* Ecclesiastes 3:19-20. "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again."
* Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10. "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing [....] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished [...] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
* Isaiah 14:18 "All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, everyone in his own house."
* Isaiah 26:19. "19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."
* Ezekiel 18:20."The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
* Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
* Daniel 12:13 "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
* Matthew 9:24-27. "24He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. 25But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. "
* Matthew 16:27. "27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
* Matthew 27:51-55. "51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, "
* Luke 8:52, 53 "Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. 'Stop wailing,' Jesus said. 'She is not dead but asleep.' They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead."
* John 3:5, 6 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
* John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."
* John 5:28-30. "28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
* John 6:39. "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
* John 6:40. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:44. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:54. "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 12:48. "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
* John 11:11-14. "These things said he [Jesus]: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
* John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."
* John 20:17. "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
* Acts 2:29. "29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
* Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand".
* Acts 7:59-62. "59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."
* Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption."
* 1 Corinthians 15:16-50 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished [....] If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die. [�] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [....] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
* 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed�in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."
* 2 Corinthians 4:7-5:4 "For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake [....] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you [....] For which cause we faint not [...] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."
* James 2:26. "26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
* Ephesians 5:14 "...for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: 'Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'"
* 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first".
* Hebrews 9:27. "27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
* 1 Timothy 6:16 "who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."
* 2 Timothy 4:7-8. " 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
* 2 Peter 3:4 "[...]for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
dear hitman, i dont think youre crazy hehe i am on the other side of the fence than you on this one though ..
for arguements sake... lets just say youre dead on with your belief on this..
whats the worst thing happens to ya if when you die? you just sleep till JESUS comes ,,even if thats thousands of years from now or whenever...
if youre asleep you wont even know youre gone till youve been awakened... right?
now lets look at what if the others , myself included are right on this one... whats the worst that happenes to ya when ya die?
well in the blink of an eye youre right there with JESUS..
so see either way youre gonna be with JESUS.. ones just sooner than the other ..
now this is speaking of folks that are saved ... you know where youre goin.. and its all good.. PRAISE GOD.
now yawl know how my ole memory aint so good hehe so i got a question to ponder on and maybe someone remembers a scripture on the subject..
this is what ive been ponderin on whilest readin the subject..
the HOLY SPIRIT,,,thats livin inside of you,,,,, HE dont die when you die.. right so doesnt HE return to heaven then? back to GOD? sposin HE takes your spirit back with HIM then when HE goes?
The scripture I posted was before Jesus resurrected Lazerus. Martha said, I know you will rise him up at the resurrection, but Jesus corrected her. If you believe in Him and are already dead, He will rise you up, if you believe in Him while you are alive, you (your spirit) will never die.
Paul also told us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.
And Solomon said in Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Finally, John 3:16 For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Everlasting life means life without end, not one that starts and stops.
This is all new covenant stuff, prior to Christ it did not work this way. That is what Jesus was trying to explain in the Lazerus passage.
There are thousands of scriptures that talk about everlasting life.
I studied with the JWs for a while and they believe as you. They almost won me over, but there are just too many verses that say otherwise.
Well...Paul kinda said he was "willing" to be absent from the body and present with the Lord...but anyway...not the point, I know...
And Cattle...I don't mean that what you believe is going to cause you to be "unsaved"...but I know for a fact that it does cause some others to lose their faith or never try to get it in the first place...that's the only problem I have with it...besides the fact that it doesn't make sense to me:winksmile:. I would like to point out all the stuff I think Christians believe that is from paganism/the dark ages...but I'll try not to. I think you're all good christian people, and I believe that anyone who truly believes the truth they have(as long as it's not too freaky) will be in heaven....because it's not our knowledge that saves us(it edifies us), it's our faith and our attitude. But I wish you guys would switch over so more people would see God like they're supposed to:winksmile:.
As ole cattle said, and as Leon quoted Ecc 12:7, the spirit goes back to God who gave it. The following passage says to me that we all are of dust and when we die we all turn to dust again. But... the spirit of man either goes upward, returns to God, or goes downward.
Ecclesiastes 3:20-21
-All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
-Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
I don't believe a spirit, something that is alive, can lay in the dust of the earth waiting to be called either upward or downward. It departs from our body, we then die.
Life is in the spirit, or it's the spirit that gives us life. James tells us when the spirit is gone, the body is dead, or one dies. The life has gone out of them, that life being the spirit.
James 2:26
-For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Stephen, knowing he was going to die, said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
Acts 7:59-60
-And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
-And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Why ask the Lord upon your dying moment to receive your spirit, if in fact your spirit is going to lie in the dust until its called, decades or centuries or millennia from the time of death?
Jesus said the same thing, and He didn't ascend to His father when He died. But anyway...I'd still like to hear what someone thinks about the verses I gave. I mean...there's the verses that say David is not ascended to heaven, and there's the verse that says Jesus is the only one that has ascended to heaven(even though that's kinda weird...because then where are Moses and Elijah?). There's the verses that say Jesus brings His reward with Him, there's the verse that says He is going to prepare a place for us and and He will come again to take us there...the list goes on. I'm not trying to poke at anybody, but it's easy to twist a couple verses....or use one verse to start re-translating the rest of the bible...but when you take 10 or 20 verses, then you can start building doctrine. There's only like...two verses that you gave that are giving me any pause when trying to explain it. If you can beat me at my own game, and show me a lot of verses that directly contradict the way I believe then I will change...I promise. Just hope you guys can do the same. Either I'm wrong or you are. Hopefully the bible can work it out! :rocknroll:
And hey, this subject ties directly in with hell stuff, so feel free to use all the "eternal punishment" verses too. Those will make it tough on me.:prayingm:
9-And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10-And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11-And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
The above passage shows the souls [spirits] of those who are killed for their faith during the Trib. They are under the altar, the altar being in heaven. They are told to rest until their fellowservants are killed as they were, which most likely will be toward the end of the Trib. How would you explain that passage given your current view?
I don't know that there are 'a lot of verses that directly contradict the way you believe', or that there really has to be. It only takes one verse in the Bible to realize how much God loves us. :)
I'm not going to get involved in the debate, but I would like to tell a personal story that ties in. Like I said, this is NOT a part of the debate.
My grandmother was in the hospital for weeks prior to her passing. She was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, blood cancer basically.
Her hospital bed constantly weighed her. I was sitting at the foot (not on) of her bed and she weighed 154.6 pounds. She passed away about 10 minutes later and weighed 152.4 pounds. 2.2pounds was gone. Nothing was different on her bed. Period. Everyone can BELIEVE what they'd like, but I KNOW her soul didn't stay with her body.
In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, we are told what happened to the rich man [and Lazarus] when they died. The rich man found himself in hell. Dead bodies don't talk :goofball: so we can only conclude that it is the spirit [that lives] that was in torment.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
I know this is backward, but now look at verse 22-
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
He was buried. Dead in the ground or tomb, but yet found himself in hell. What part of him went to hell?
Let me ask you why it makes a difference? If we are right, you will instantly be with the Father If we are wrong, the next thing you know is you will be with the Father. Either way, it is the same thing.
If you are dead in the grave awaiting resurrection, you won't know it, so it just doesn't matter.
It is the same with the free will vs predestination debate. The truth is, God does not fit easily into our preconceived ideas. God will do what He wants, when He wants, How He wants. These arguments are without fruit. And they don't make any difference whatsoever to anything except our pride in being right.
