Here is what Dake (Dake's annotated study bible)had to say on this subject;
When something, like real estate, is confiscated, it can be seized due to some forfeiture on the part of the original owner.
Before the Creation story of Genesis, Lucifer held sole dominion over all the Earth and everything in it. His rule is referenced many times throughout the bible by the wording to re-plenish the earth. (Gen. 9:1, Jer. 4: 23-26, Isa. 2:6, Jer.31:25, Ezek. 26:2), etc. When Satan rebelled and was condemned by God, God took back the earth, recreated it in the 7-day Creation story, and at this point, gave dominion over all, to man. Satan, angered by this, attempted to get it back in the Garden. He failed in the grand scheme of things, yet did prevail spiritually against (innocent) man (Eve & Adam).
After the Fall, (Gen. 1:28) man was encouraged to go out, to be fruitful (a true blessing) and to multiply in order to re-plenish the Earth. (To replenish from what? One man and one woman? Another topic, I know. Wink)
Ultimate possession is held by God. Physical & interim dominion, given to man. And in the end, the Lord will rule.
Thanks for the welcome back cattle...it has been a while hasnt it?!
Leon - I do agree with you that by rights, Man has dominion over the earth - however we gave that away and even though Christ won it back for us, it is up to us to make the move out of our self-imposed "cage" and to actually step into that dominion again.
As far as your views about Lucifer holding dominion before the creation of the world, well personally I don't believe that is the case at all, simply because it is not possible as the world was not yet in existence according to the Bible.
My (granted, perhaps somewhat limited) understanding, and the way I have always been taught and what I have always understood to be true through my studies is that the earth was simply not in existence prior to the moment of creation described in Genesis. Heaven (not the heavens i.e. skies, but the dwelling place of God - more than likely in another dimension that our limited understanding cannot fully grasp) was however in existence. This is where God was to be found, and all the angels, generally believed to be have been divided into three groupings if you will. The warrior angels lead by Michael, messenger angels lead by Gabriel and worshipping angels lead by Lucifer.
Essentially Lucifer became jealous and lead a rebellion against God and tried to install himself in place of God - leading of course to his defeat and banishment from heaven to earth which was appointed as a place of punishment and waiting for him and his followers (the worshipping third of the angels). It was as a result of this banishment and his downfall that he was mad at God. And of course being trapped on earth he had no way to get back at God, except to attempt to take down God's prized creation, Mankind, which as we know he succeeded in.
I don't have time to really get into it in detail right this minute as I am on my way out the door to the gym, but I will post more later. I looked briefly at your scriptures which seem to be largely taken out of context (I have only looked at them briefly mind you, will look in more detail later this afternoon), and actually say nothing (as far as I can see right now) about Man being commanded to RE-plenish the earth as you said. The sole possible exception is the Genesis 9 passage where God tells NOAH to fill the earth (I haven't looked yet, but it is certainly possible the original language meant replenish), however that makes perfect sense since this was roughly 2000 years post-creation and there had just been a cataclysmic flood that destroyed all humanity except the 8 people that were on the ark. So God telling Noah to re-plenish the earth would make perfect sense, despite its irrelevance to the discussion at hand.
ANYWAY, as mentioned I am off to the gym and will post in more detail later today.
OK, back from the gym, settled in front of the TV with the Olympics on in the background...and am ready to get into this lol.
I would like to point you to some scriptures that support my belief which I briefly outlined in my previous post (and many scholars and theologians agree with me on this). Take a look if you will at Ezekiel 28:12-19
12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [a] turquoise and beryl. [b]
Your settings and mountings [c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "
Now, it would initially appear that this passage (the most complete biography - if you will - of Lucifer in the Bible) is addressed to an earthly king - however upon closer examination we see that this is not possible due to the language used and descriptions in the passage. Many people agree that this passage is actually talking about Lucifer as previously mentioned.
"You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty...you were in Eden the garden of God...you were anointed as a guardian cherub...you were blameless in your ways till wickedness was found in you...your heart became proud on account of your beauty...so i threw you to the earth...I reduced you to ashes on the ground...you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.
It is my belief that this passage is initially describing Lucifer as he was following his creation - beautiful, adorned in glory, full of wisdom, anointed and blameless. The middle and final section of this passage then addresses his sins and God's judgment on those sins, both judgments that have already been accomplished, and judgments that are yet to come. There is a mood change when looking at the original language between verses 17 and 18 - the word mood in verse 17 when referring to his heart becoming proud and him being thrown to the earth etc is the "perfect", which refers to a completed action. The mood in verses 18 referencing the actions God will perform in punishment of Lucifer are described in the "imperfect" which expresses something that has not yet been completed which indicates that these judgments on Lucifer are still to come (or were at the time this was written anyway - my personal belief is that they are describing part of what will be God's final judgment on Lucifer).
Another scripture that supports my belief can be found in Revelation, the 12th chapter. I would like to point you specifically to verses 4, 7 and 9. These verses talk about the war in heaven (7), the casting down of the dragon (Satan) from heaven (9), and about how his (the dragon's) tail drew with him a third of the stars (most scholars believe these to be angels) in the sky when he fell. This is more debatable than the previous point, and not really relevant to the original discussion, however I figured I might as well throw it in...
NOW, on to the original topic, a couple of scriptures that support my belief that mankind WAS given dominion over the earth originally and handed it off to Satan through their deception by him and the resulting fall. As also mentioned, I do believe that dominion is now available to us again through the completed work of Jesus on the cross.
First off I would like to point you to Luke 4:5-7 when Satan was tempting Jesus.
5The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7So if you worship me, it will all be yours."
Clearly stated in this passage is the fact that Satan had all authority (at this point in time) over all the kingdoms of the world, and had the power to give it to whom he chose. Now this is important because it not only establishes that Satan did in fact have dominion over the earth, it also confirms the fact that the dominion which was originally given to man CAN in fact be transferred based on the actions of the person who holds it.
Now, lets take a look at John 12:27-32. In this passage we see Jesus predicting his death on the cross, and in verse 31 He makes an undeniably clear statement "Now is the judgment of this world, now the ruler of this world will be cast out". This is KEY in our understanding of the fact that Satan had dominion over this world up to the moment of Jesus death and resurrection. The reason this is such a key statement is because IF mankind were actually still in dominion over the world prior to the death/resurrection of Jesus, then this statement would make NO SENSE whatsoever. Jesus by his own admission will never leave nor forsake us (mankind) which is categorically opposite to casting out. If mankind were in dominion of the world at the point this was spoken that would make Jesus out to be a liar, which we obviously know is not the case - therefore is stands to reason that mankind was in fact NOT in dominion of the world at this point. However if Satan were in dominion of the world, then verse 31 makes perfect sense. I rest my case.
Another passage that touches on this subject is Ephesians 2, specifically the first few verses. Now, allow me to address the scriptures you posted (I am aware that this post is getting long...I will try to keep it brief)...beginning with the first one - Genesis 9.
Looking at the original language, in Genesis 9:1 God did indeed command Noah and his family to replenish the earth. The important distinction here is that God was talking to NOAH, not Adam and this command was given POST-FLOOD which had just wiped out the entire population of the earth. In that context, the command makes perfect sense, however it is irrelevant to this discussion.
Your second passage bears no apparent connection to the discussion at hand at all. I cannot see any reference to any form of command in here, let alone one to replenish the earth. It does talk about an absence of man, however as this is a lament for a doomed nation, I see no connection at all. Perhaps you can enlighten me?
Next you referenced Isaiah 2:6, and again, I must confess I see absolutely no connection. This passage is a description of the state of a portion of the nation of Israel and nowhere even in any of the surrounding verses do I see anything resembling a command to replenish the earth.
Next up, Jeremiah 31:25 - well this passage actually has the word replenish found in it, albeit without any bearing on our current discussion...this passage is describing the tail end of a dream Jeremiah had and this portion is prophesying the future prosperity and blessing that is to come on Judah. Jeremiah 31:25 "For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul"
Second to last you mentioned Ezekiel 26:2, which again has no bearing that I can see on this discussion. It is the beginning of a proclamation by Ezekiel against Tyre prophesying is destruction. Nothing to do with any command to populate or re-populate the earth.
Finally, you mentioned Genesis 1:28 where man was commanded to "be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves on the earth. Now if we look to the original language used here, the word used is actually replenish, the same word as is used in Genesis 9 when God is talking to Noah, HOWEVER when we look at the definition of this word (Strong's number 04390) it means simply to fill. Nowhere in the definition of this word is any hint of anything that may indicate they were re-filling the earth. God essentially said to them go, be fruitful and fill the earth. Nothing more, nothing less.
Well, I feel like I have rambled on long enough - I hope you can find some interesting food for thought in here and that this is challenging you to grow and expand your understanding...'cause isn't that the whole point?? If you would like to discuss further, I am happy to...I would only ask that you please do more than simply list off scripture references without any exhortation if you would like to pursue this further.
Thank-you for allowing me to share my opinion, garnered from much study and thought/prayer.
I loved your answer. That is something I can work with. You stated your opinion and gave verses to explain why. Very good job.
Let me start by explaining that the last post was part of a commentary by Dake (Pentecost Study Bible). I will post the second part of his comment, then I will explain my beliefs. I will also try to keep it brief, but there are so many scriptures....maybe I will leave out the repetitive ones.
Dake:
The bible is written for believers. As for most others... rather dry and boring reading. It is also filled with the most amazing stuff to be unveiled as we are able to go along. The most vital being, no absolute interpretation. This is deliberate, I believe. After all... did not the Garden story teach us that total knowledge & the difference between good and evil was the exclusive dominion of God? As human beings living in this life time, we can not know the full depths of understanding nor the implications of sin verses the good we do, given our limited faculties, although we apire to. These far-reaching truths remain under God's control. We are given that which we need to know to claim salvation... the most important step humanity can take... and from there, we grow spiritually to claim all the joys of the Kingdom.
At first glance the above bible verses might seem to be out of context. They are quoted, however, as just some of the many references to the times that God chastened Israel for major wrongdoing and harkened him back to the original state-of-the-world wherein a social-system pre-(Gen. 1:2) was also terribly corrupt.
These verses make us take a more serious look at what was in place in & over the earth before dominion over it all was given to mankind.
In (Gen. 9:1) for instance, we see Noah getting the identical blessing given Adam when he was instructed to go forth and multiply and fill the earth.
In (Jer. 4:23-26) we see Jeremiah being shown the total destruction of life on the earth to reveal how the land of Judah would be destroyed, and to make a comparison between the two times. In the original judgment on the whole earth all life had been destroyed, but in Judah God was to make an exception (Jer. 4:27). God declared He would NOT make a fullend as on the original earth.
The other verses (just to quote a few) can also be tied in with this concept.
PS: Pastor John Hagee, for one, is a firm Daksist supporter.
Me:
I know, as do we all, that God gave dominion of the earth over to man in the garden. The bible tells us that two things happened in the garden at the fall. First, that sin entered into the world, and secondly death entered.
Now dominion of the earth was important enough to mention twice in three verses in Gen 1:26-28, don't you think if it was stolen or lost the Bible would have mentioned it? It would be like the bible saying that Jesus came, but not what happened to Him. I just don't see it.
As for when Satan was tempting Jesus....Satan is known as the great deceiver, did you ever think it possible that he was lying? We know he is known for it, why would he suddenly change at that moment?
As for him being the ruler of this world, I have no argument. It is obviously the truth if you but look around. However, Satan is not going after the earth, he is going after man. By controlling man, he controls the earth.
Jesus came to earth in the flesh, which, because He was also man, did in a sense give Him dominion back. As God, He is in control of everything except what He has given to others. But as man also, He regained dominion of the earth as well. Of course He has to share that with the rest of us, but it allows Him to act on our behalf without our knowledge.
Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
We see in the above verses that man's power is given to Satan for a time during the last days. What power does man have that being of one mind would make a difference? Our dominion, of course. Since it is a shared dominion, unity is the key to making things happen.
The Father Himself shows us the importance of being of one accord, and the power in it. In Gen 11: 6 And the Lord said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.
We also see how He intends to counter Satan in Zeph 3: 9 "For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language, That they all may call on the name of the Lord, To serve Him with one accord.
I believe that this not only shows that we still have dominion, but that we are to keep it until the end of days. It has been part of God's plan from the beginning.
Thanks for your further explanations. It certainly helped me to understand more of where you are coming from, however I must admit that I still don't see how those passages are connected however without some Biblical proof of the connection I must respectfully continue to disagree with you. For example, you cited the passage from Jeremiah 4 saying that
"In (Jer. 4:23-26) we see Jeremiah being shown the total destruction of life on the earth to reveal how the land of Judah would be destroyed, and to make a comparison between the two times. In the original judgment on the whole earth all life had been destroyed, but in Judah God was to make an exception (Jer. 4:27). God declared He would NOT make a fullend as on the original earth."
If God is going to make an exception and these two scenarios are not the same, (i.e. no total destruction) then they cannot really be compared with reference to the command to populate the earth. Regardless - I have not seen anywhere in any of these passages a command to mankind to RE-populate the earth, which I believe was your original point in referencing these scriptures? At this point we are simply debating points that have no bearing on the original discussion..
Now, allow me to address a couple of points...
1) You said that there was a corrupt social system in place pre Genesis 1:2...well Biblically there is NO evidence of that, and pre-Genesis 1:2 is PRE CREATION, therefore there was no earth, no social system, no life in this dimension.
2) I am not debating the RIGHT of man to have dominion over the earth, or the fact that it is now available to us again through Jesus on the cross. I am simply saying that by SUBMITTING ourselves to Satan and his purposes on earth we essentially gave him that dominion UNTIL such time as Jesus came and released us from bondage to Satan. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree because I know I am 110% convinced I am right on this, and I'm sure you are just as convinved...however I will make a few more arguments for the sake of discussion...
3) True that Satan is known as a liar, even the father of lies, HOWEVER keep in mind that he was talking to Jesus, who although he was 100% man, was also 100% God during his time on earth - and Satan knew this. Despite being able to seemingly fool us at will, he cannot hide anything from God, and do you not think that God, being the author of truth, and light Himself would have disputed Satan's claim to dominion over the earth if it were not true?
I would also like to point you to 1 John 5:19 in which John clearly states "the whole world is under the control of the evil one". In addition to that, Jesus himself (who cannot lie) called Satan the prince of this world (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11). Paul called him the God of this age (2 Corinthians 4:4) and the ruler of the kingdom of the air (Ephesians 2:2). It is my humble opinion that these scriptures prove that Satan has (had) dominion (or legal right) over the earth until Jesus wrested it back from him for us by his accomplished work on the cross. It is now simply up to us to take it back. Also, by your own admission you said Satan was the ruler of the world...a ruler has dominion does he now? Dominion simply means the power or right of governing or controlling. How can anyone look around today and truly say that Satan is not in dominion of the earth? This is especially trajic since for over 2000 years now, that dominion has been ours for the taking again. Unfortunately most people dont realize that.
4) One more thing that I cannot overlook that Dake mentioned in that commentary you quoted. That is is statement that there can be no absolute interpretation of the Bible - if he truly means what he stated here that is a very scary thought. If you (or anyone) truly believes that there is no absolute interpretation of the Bible, then perhaps Jesus wasnt the Son of God? Perhaps he didn't really die on the cross for our sins? Perhaps its OK for me to steal, murder, fornicate as I will? Yes, this is an extreme, but where do we draw the line? There HAS to absolutely HAS TO be absolute interpretation of the Bible or there can be no absolute truth. Just my humble opinion...
Quote: 2) I am not debating the RIGHT of man to have dominion over the earth, or the fact that it is now available to us again through Jesus on the cross. I am simply saying that by SUBMITTING ourselves to Satan and his purposes on earth we essentially gave him that dominion UNTIL such time as Jesus came and released us from bondage to Satan. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree because I know I am 110% convinced I am right on this, and I'm sure you are just as convinved...however I will make a few more arguments for the sake of discussion...
Hope others may join the discussion?? My take ...
Man was given dominion over the earth in Genesis and nowhere in the scriptures has this been taken away from man. The ground was "cursed" (lifted after the flood) and enimity was proclaimed between the "seed of the woman" and satan (as the woman has no "seed" this is generally interpreted as meaning "Christ (virgin birth)" so the enimity is between Christ & Satan. Satan wasnt given dominion over the "earth" (fish, animals, plants etc) The fall of man in Genesis was not loss of dominion on earth but the gain of knowledge of sin and physical death. I have a feeling that there are two different understandings of "dominion of earth" going on here? Ultimately, God has dominion/rule over all things. Man has been created in His image so are we not to have dominion/rule over all as caretakers of His divine creations?
