That's usually because they understand the word of God. I can give one person an NIV bible and another a NKJV and they will both get completely different things out of it. That is translation. Interpretation means nothing more than how you understand something. This isn't rocket science, but it does require years of study to get right. Not classroom or guided study, but self study. Just you and God.
This is what Acts 2 says. Let's examine this in context. Nothing i have said is in any contradiction of this passage. If you try to take this passage and apply it for us today then that would be takeing it out of context and making a wrong application.
Act 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabs�we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."
First off, this is the first time the Holy Spirit came as Jesus said He would. Notice that actual languages were spoken and not gibberish. I have to go get ready for church so I may have to finish this later. Anyway. What was being spoken in tongues/languages was specific. They were quoting an Old Testament prophesy which was a rebuke of the leadership of the Jews for rejecting the Messiah. "This is the Refreshing" is what they were saying. I will show you that later.
What the scriptures also demonstrate is that after this event on Pentecost and one other time in Cornelius house, no one ever received any Supernatural Gifts like Tongues unless one of the 12 Apostles of Jesus personally laid their hands on that person.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Notice that Phillip was utilizing the power of the gifts he had but also notice that the Apostles had to come and lay hands in order for other people to receive the gifts themselves.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
What is often misunderstood by Charasmatics is that when the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit "falling down" on someone or them it is not talking about "Salvation" as everyone who places their faith in Christ, repents and is Baptized automatically receives the Holy Spirit Himself. When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit falling upon someone it is speaking about the impartation of the gifts.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe? That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts through the Apostles of Christ by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated. There was one other instance where people received the gifts without the laying on of hands by the Apostles BUT the Apostles were still present when this occured. It is also important to note that the Apostles did not have the power to transfer their powers so others could lay hands and so forth. There is a distinct difference between laying hands on someone and they are immediately healed as opposed to praying for someone and GOD heals them like He does today.
Let's look at Romans and take notice of something that also supports the other scriptures. In Rome a church had been formed but no Apostles had yet visited it and established it.
Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established�
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. NKJV
Here we see that the Roman Christians who were "saved" had not as yet received any supernatural "gifts". So it demonstrates that receving gifts was not something the Holy Spirit did automatically upon salvation. The one exception with the Roman church is that someone had the gift of "Prophesy". We know that someone who started the Roman church had to have heard the preaching of the Gospel from an Apostle, most likely in Jerusalem and had hands laid upon them which is how they would have received that gift. They obviously traveled back to Rome and that church began. As a side note, this church in Rome is the same church that later developed into the Roman Catholic Church 300 years later, only by that time they had drifted away from the true Gospel.
What had to happen?
An Apostle had to be physically present to impart the gifts through the "laying on of hands".
Act 5:12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.
Notice that is was "through the hands of the Apostles" that many "signs and wonders" were done among the people.
Do you suppose it is hard for a non saved person, to comprehend an individual that is born again.
How does an individual that has not received the holy spirit, explain to one who has received the holy spirit in light of the word.
In all occasions, where the believers initially spoke in tongues it was following receiving the holy spirit, subsequent to receiving salvation.
You would have to add to the word to say they received the gifts.
All occassions do not say the apostles laid hands on them.
In the upper room their 120 believers present, no where does the bible say hands where laid on them.
It does tell us all received:1 � And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 � While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
In this occasion the holy ghost fell on them which heard the word.
Stephen and Phillip where neither apostles.
Question who laid hands on Paul?
I know the difference between praying in tongues and the gift of tongues.
The bible is very clear in that those that received the holy spirit spoke in tongues, the lord never forces you, you can pray or speak in tongues at your will anytime. we see that everytime the believers received the Holy Spirt.
Paul mentions this in: 1st Cor.14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 � What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
There is much info here, these scriptures also tell us that praying in tongues is praying in the spirit. Paul Said I will pray in an unknown tongue.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are always as he wills not as men wills
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Now the gifts of the spirit are for all believers but it is obvious all believers do not accept the holy spirit
I am trying to be patient and kind to you, but you are WAY out of line saying that anyone has not received the Spirit. For one thing, if you believe the bible, as you claim with your mouth, you would not be judging anyone, much less God's children.
Calm down and be civil, staarting with an apology or we are done, my friend.
I will have no part in judging people, no matter how small.
You are ignoring some very important scriptures I gave to you.
But let's address Paul first. Paul needed no one to lay hands upon him to receive "gifts" as He was personally appointed by Jesus to be HIS Apostle. That was a divine appointment. You need to be able to discern this distinction. However Paul did have hands laid upon him to be healed. You may have overlooked this passage.
Act 9:10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord."
11 So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying.
12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and PUTTING HIS HAND ON HIM, SO THAT HE MIGHT RECEIVE HIS SIGHT."
Did you notice this PJ?
Ananias was a disciple, a believer who apparently had received spiritual gifts no doubt from from one of the Apostles.
13 Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.
14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name."
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."
17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house;AND LAYING HIS HANDS UPON HIM he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
So PJ we see that Paul had hands laid upon him in order to be healed. Paul received the Holy Spirit after he had hands laid upon him. Let's continue.
With only TWO exceptions, one originally at Pentecost, (Apostles were present) and the other time in Cornelius house (Peter was present and the Holy Spirit had to move ahead of Peter because he was not getting with the program) , In every other case throughout the New Testament, nobody received any "Supernatural Gifts" unless one of the 12 Apostles of Jesus were present and personally laid hands upon them. That is an irrefutable fact.
Act 5:12 And THROUGH THE HANDS OF THE APOSTLES many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.
Notice that is was "through the hands of the Apostles" that many "signs and wonders" were done among the people. NKJV
Let's look at Acts again and what occurred with Simon.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Notice that Phillip was utilizing the power of the gifts he had but also notice that the Apostles had to come and lay hands in order for other people to receive the gifts themselves.
How do you explain this PJ?
If the Holy Spirit was just handing out gifts without the need for an Apostle as you claim and Charismatics claim for today,...then why was it necessary for the Apostles to come and lay hands upon these people in order to receive Spiritual gifts? See below. Your theological beliefs are in direct contradiction to scriptures.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
What is often misunderstood by Charismatics is that when the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit "falling down" on someone or them, it is not talking about "Salvation" as everyone who places their faith in Christ, repents and is Baptized automatically receives the Holy Spirit Himself. When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit falling upon someone it is speaking about the impartation of the gifts.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
Now don't miss this very important observation PJ.
18 And when Simon saw *** THAT ****THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLE'S HANDS... the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe PJ?
That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts through the Apostles of Christ by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated. There was one other instance where people received the gifts without the laying on of hands by the Apostles BUT the Apostles were still present when this occurred.
It is also important to note that the Apostles did not have the power to transfer their powers so others could lay hands and so forth. There is a distinct difference between laying hands on someone and they are immediately healed as opposed to praying for someone and GOD heals them like He does today.
Here is another very important point PJ that you have not explained.
Let's look at Romans and take notice of something that also supports the other scriptures. In Rome a church had been formed but no Apostles had yet visited it and established it.
Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, **** THAT**** I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established�
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. NKJV
Here we see that the Roman Christians who were "saved" had not as yet received any supernatural "gifts". So it demonstrates that receiving gifts was not something the Holy Spirit did automatically upon salvation. The one exception with the Roman church is that someone had the gift of "Prophesy". We know that someone who started the Roman church had to have heard the preaching of the Gospel from an Apostle, most likely in Jerusalem and had hands laid upon them which is how they would have received that gift. They obviously traveled back to Rome and that church began. As a side note, this church in Rome is the same church that later developed into the Roman Catholic Church 300 years later, only by that time they had drifted away from the true Gospel.
What had to happen?
An Apostle had to be physically present to impart the gifts through the "laying on of hands".
Mark16:19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, [ the Apostles] He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they [the Apostles]went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV
Do you see PJ how God worked through the Apostles in order to establish their authority to establish the Churches? That is why God gave them special supernatural gifts, the Holy Spirit working THROUGH the Apostles. When the Apostles finally died, the gifts ceased within the First Century. They never appeared again until the beginning of the Charismatic movement in the late 1700 by the Irvinites who were a known HERETICAL group. The only time throughout Church history we see "alleged gifts" is among known cults and the Occult both of whom deny Christ Jesus.
The Gibberish we hear among Charismatics and Pentecostals is not real "tongues". There is no such thing as a "spiritual Language" that is a tongue and we do not speak in Angelic tongues either. Coincidentally it is the very same Gibberish spoken by cults and other groups who deny Jesus as being the Christ.
Walter you should be more sensitive to others that do not believe like you do. We are on here to meet people and build friendships or more. Not to win others to our own denomination. I think we are all christians here, I dont understand why we are always trying to see who is wrong or right. I've been to bible college, I've taken classes at various places and know from experience the professors teach out of their own interpretation of the scriptures. they all have scriptures to back up their beliefs.
I find it difficult to even be on these forums when all I read is arrows being thrown back and forth. We all love JESUS and believe He is coming back. Can we love each other and overlook our differences? Is that possible?
I know that all this bologna does not please God. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, a family.
you mention about charismatics and pentecostals and have some hard things to say about them. believe me...I have my own thoughts about you too and your posts. but I keep them to myself, not because I cant stand up for myself or what I believe but because Jesus lives in me and I wouldnt want to hurt you or throw arrows back at you because He is love. Judgment is not up to us and I think we need to remember that when stating our biblical views.
and I am sorry that I am targeting Walter but what he said just put me over the edge and I just cant believe we are so driven to prove others wrong and sling around ugly accusations that we miss opportunities to love on each other, which is the greatest commandment.
We are all born again believers and family in Christ.
Presenting the scriptures well exegeted is a very important thing to do in order to make sure the interpretations are correct. Phillip is in serious error and needs to be presented proper arguments. Nothing in my post was untruthful. I am of no particular denomination.
These boards are for various discussions and that involves debates as well. I am never angry in my posts nor emotional. I speak straightforward. If someone thinks I am in error that is perfectly fine and we can discuss these areas. Over the years it has helped me tremendously causing me to dig deeper and deeper into God's word. Sometimes people do get passionate about their beliefs but as mature Christians we should never get offended but be big enough to take some heat and even insults. However if there are personal insults then all of us should be held accountable for that. Unfortunately there are those who just rather hold hands and sing Kumbaya and not get into theological discussions.
Guess what? This is a Bible Discussion Board and as such there will be theological debates. This forum has a specific design to it. Meeting people is a side benefit not the main event. Other boards are for meeting people. The main site is for meeting people by looking through the personals. Yes we do meet people here and it is such a great blessing but let us not make the mistake of what this specific Forum is all about. Bible Questions and Discussions. We should all be here for the purpose of growing spiritually stronger and more mature in God's Word. To learn from each other even if it means we end up being proven wrong in a an area. So what? This should mean then that we come to a better understanding.
Perhaps you are not aware that we as Christians are suppose to point out errors.That includes this forum. If stating that there is a great deal of error within the Charismatic and Pentecostal Churches or other beliefs offends them, then perhaps they should consider that what is being taught in those Churches may be a serious situation in God's eyes. People pretending to speak in unbiblical Tongues is not of God but of another spirit. People thrashing around the floor claiming to have been "slain in the spirit" is also not of God but a mockery and resembles demonic possession in the scriptures. False beliefs can be very dangerous and lead a once believing Christian away from Christ.
You went to a Bible College? That is great! Then perhaps you would like to demonstrate to me where I have made some bad exegesis and show me where I violated Hermeneutics. If I am wrong then great because that just helps me grow more. Isn't that how we should all be?
dear walter, there are many ways to explain ones beliefs witout havin to throw insults to other denominations and or beliefs...
as in your words here
Coincidentally it is the very same Gibberish spoken by cults and other groups who deny Jesus as being the Christ.
mine here ,
you dont have to slap somone in their face to give a proper esgesis of your beliefs and what you percieve to be truth..
by claiming pentecostols of today are the same as other groups who deny JESUS... and just speak gibberish..
how could you possibly state it as fact unless you are able to intrepret tongues...?
thats way out of line..
all you had to say in your egesis was i dont believe its the same today as when the apostles were around.
simple and witout insults..
its not the first time ive seen these actions from you.. and i have asked folks to please refrain from making these kinds of statements..,insults and just speak their beliefs and why they believe as they do..
now im asking you personally to please stop this behavior..
dear folks, heres us a little summin to ponder on...
comes under the heading in my nkjv bible as ;
JESUS forbids sectarianism
mark 9:38-40 38 Now John answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us."
39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our side.
Pointing out serious error and comparing it to the same things that occur among cults and the Occult is not bad behavior on my part and I will continue to point out the seriousness of this. You and others may not like it but it is not bad behavior. It is correcting serious error in their teachings which scripture tells us to do. I realize some people do not have the stomach for it and it seems to be that way in our modern churches today. People do not like being told or suggested that they may be in error or are in sin, etc.
The tongues being spoken today are not biblical. Gibberish is not a tongue and there is no interpretation for gibberish. It is not a spiritual or prayer language as that is utter nonsense. I have visited many Charismatic Churches and in each case when so called "tongues" were spoken it was not an actual language, it was gibberish. Besides the purpose of tongues in the New Testament was an Old Testament Prophesy rebuking the Jewish leadership for rejecting the Messiah. That prophesy has been fulfilled. Even Paul said that Tongues would cease all on their own long before Christ would return. They were for a specific purpose and that purpose is over. That is what the evidence of scripture teaches us.
As men of God we have to stand for the truth no matter who it offends. Remember that the Gospel is going to offend people.
