This is the post I used in Walter's topic on "murder in the heart".
"Hmm... there's a lot of heat on this topic, so I'll try to be brief. I don't feel like Jesus REPLACED the old commandments. I also don't see His teachings as new commandments. I don't think Jesus was trying to give us a new list of rules. In fact, just from reading about Him, I'd say he was against giving us lists of rules to follow! I think that what He was trying to do was to help us all better understand what sin is. To help us understand it a little better. He was trying to help us RECOGNIZE sin... at the core. I think God may have been tired of us following rules just because they were given to us. I think He wanted us to develop a deeper understanding of what sin truly is. I don't believe the people back in Jesus' time had any concept of this. They were just trying to follow the rules to the letter. They didn't understand what sin truly was. Sin was just a word for "you broke a rule". This largely summarizes the way the Pharisees and other teachers of the law acted during that time. They followed the rules as close to the letter as they could, yet were missing the point. As a result of their ignorance of what sin actually was, they were usually oblivious when they were caught up inside of it! In fact, the more I spend time in the "church", or the institutional church anyways, the more I see Christians falling back into this same pattern. "I better follow the rules to the dot so I don't go to hell." This is sad. Literally. It's depressing. What's even sadder, to me, is that no one is standing up against it. We're just all allowing it. We're teaching it our kids. Our own youth. I've been struggling with this for a little while now. I'm not quite sure how to respond or what to do. Maybe none of you feel the same way I do. Maybe you do. If you don't, that's okay. I have to answer for my actions as you have to answer for yours. If you do agree with me, please... share your thoughts. Please. (peacefully, hopefully)"
The reasons of your issue are the exact same reasons I left the church that I had grown up in for 23 years!! They were extremely stuck on the "law". Not just the Old Testament Law but also the legalistic side of "running" a church. I have now found a church that I believe is less legalistic and they seem to be simply practicing what the bible teaches and sharing it with others. I hope you find what you're looking for and may God bless you on your journey!!
Thanks. I have dedicated my life to loving God and loving other people. I have also decided to commit my life to ministry. My views of what that is are changing. Thanks for your advice.
Storm:
What church did you end up switching to? Thanks for the encouragement, man.
dear jf, glad to help a little.. but i already knew you loved GOD and you loved people.. ive known you for a little while ... it shows.. glad to hear you are gonna committ to ministry.. its not an easy road,but one thats well worth it.. i cant tell you how much of a blessing you get back in return.. youll do fine.
So...just out of curiosity, is this the only thing you're in disagreement with in your current church? Is there anything more specific that's causing contention?
just to let you know that sometimes bigger things than us enter churches and can take control of things without anyone realizing what is going on.
The only one with the authority is the pastor to take action because God has placed him as the head / shepherd.
God maybe showing you this so that you will rise up and expose it. What you are feeling is right, dont ignore it.
continue to pray and intercede for direction and for the pastor. God is revealing your gift of discernment :)
If you have the opportunity to discuss with someone in leadership do so humbly. If they dont listen, it's ok keep praying. It may never change, but you will have done your job. Most churches have protocol for things like this, go through the right channels, dont cause waves.
I went through something similar and eventually left the church I served in after 10 years. I know it's difficult but God does move us on sometimes where we will be a better fit.
Are you already studying under a Pastor somewhere? This is such an important step towards a life of ministry.
Most of us, myself included, can't wait to get out of Bible College (Or Seminary depending on denomination) and start preaching. We usually do okay, but before long you do realize that you are clueless about many things.
When I first got out, I jumped straight into prison ministry. I loved it and it remains my nearest and dearest work. But, I was working for a man who had very different ideas about God's word than I had. Being new to ministry, I just moved on. Soon I had started my own ministry and was touring. Sounds great, but too many times you spend $5,000 to bring in $3,000. it SURE IS HARD TO CHANGE THE WORLD LIKE THAT.
All this time, I had a wonderful local Pastor whose church I attended. I would fill in for him as needed and we got along well. Finally, he approached me, he needed someone full time. I went ahead and went to work for him. It was an unpaid job, so I had to work full time as well. It was the best decision I ever made. I have matured incredibly and it has given me something that is invaluable as a Pastor, experience.
Hey. Sorry about the delay in my response. Got kinda busy. Thanks everyone for the encouragement. Leon: I'm not so much studying under a pastor... I'm a Youth Pastor intern, but that's that it. Even now, though, I don't consider him to be my mentor. I consider us partners. We are both working together and committing ourselves to this ministry for our youths' sakes. I never did finish school. I took 1 year of college and left. It just didn't feel right. I'm entirely convinced, however, that the only education I need comes from the scriptures and from God's Spirit. If God wants me to go back to school at a later date, he'll let me know. I've been at this church for almost 2 years. I'm not quite sure where I'm going next, or when that will be, but I'm always ready for it.
DontHitThatMark: The things bothering me in the "church" aren't just in my church. It is in every "church" I see. It isn't so much an isolated thing. Also, the things that are bothering me aren't just these big, obvious dilemmas. It's like when Jesus was talking about trees bearing fruit. Let me paint a picture here:
Imagine you're in a field. Off in the distance, you see several pear trees. Each tree is taken care of and grown by a single servant. From where you are, you can see the trees only, not the fruit. Some trees are larger than the others... but you that doesn't tell you anything about the fruit. You approach the trees. You take a closer look at some of the trees... though these were the biggest trees, and though they have grown the most fruit... it's bad. Bugs got to some of it... some of it is just naturally bad. It's subtle... but it's still bad. A hired hand comes up to you and says, "It's okay. Here." He pulls one of the bad pears off of his own personal tree and hands it to you, reassuring you the whole time that it's okay to eat. He then proceeds to teach you how he took care and grew these bad fruits. He points out the flaws in the other fruit trees. Finally, the cycle repeats.
This is how I feel about the "church". Sure some may look big or have a huge congregation... and I realize that if you produce good fruit that your congregation will, in turn, grow, but that doesn't mean it works the other way around, also. It's the small things that are bothering me. I will just give a few examples: A pastor prays in public. While he does so, certain staff members are moving around getting things ready, whether it's worship leaders, or someone who just finished speaking moving to sit down. We are setting the example that it's okay to do this. 0_0. Wow. Other examples: Scare tactics, public prayer, condemnation for not coming to "church", the fact that we attend a "church" SERVICE... a show... It's all of these things that I've been around my whole life, and that I've been taught, "This is how it works." Well, after reading scripture, I'm extremely convinced this is NOT just how it works... We are just trying to justify ourselves to make us feel better. After all, who like being wrong? Myself included. Fact of the matter is, though, I AM wrong. I'm just finally ready to deal with it. I'm not just gonna justify it any more.
So, THAT, in a nutshell, is where I am right now. I'm still praying about how to deal with it. I'm not quite sure yet what I'm supposed to do next. I've got some ideas and some suggestion from friends and family, but I'm still trying to discern. Thanks everyone for your support and your advice. It's been really great!
I've been having some of the same issues in my church. When you mentioned moving around during prayer especially, it's distracting. I'm a member of a very small church. It separated from my old church about a year ago. When that happened, I prayed very hard for God to tell me where to go. I went to my original church the next Sunday and the preacher, who I respected SO much, was mean. He said mean things about the others that had left so I knew I had my answer; I had to leave. It broke my heart.
So I was one of the founding members of my new church...I signed the paper along with the other 11 people. Since then we've grown some. I don't know about "membership" but there are more than 12 people that attend regularly, probably an average of 20-25. Sometimes my job requires me to work on Sundays and Wednesdays so I'm not able to have perfect attendance but 99% of the time, if I'm not at work, I'm at church. I pay my tithes there. But they still treat me like I'm a visitor. Is this normal? I've tried talking to my preacher about this but he sortof acted like it was my choice to not be at church every week. What does all this mean? Is a church membership like a marriage where you should stick with it and work through it?
These are questions I have. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
What do you mean "they treat you like a visitor"? Can you give me an example. As for what the pastor said about it being your choice not to show up to church every week... I don't think I've EVER heard of a church that requires it's members to show up each and every week. If that was the case, I don't think there would be very many members... just tons of visitors. Not showing up to church isn't a sin. We are commanded to keep the Sabbath day holy, but we are NEVER commanded to attend church "x" amount of times per week. It's funny, though, how that seems to be the impression nowadays, isn't it...
Once, there was a competition to see who could bring the most guests in a certain amount of weeks and the church Secretary counted me as her guest each week. They don't tell me about church functions that are coming up or happening. And it's hard to describe, but it's just in the way they treat me...like I just don't come to church because it's my choice not because I've got a job.
I explained to the preacher that the only time I've ever KNOWN without a doubt about what Gods telling me was when He told me to work in EMS. So I feel ok about not being able to attend church each week. But he still acts like it's my choice. All of the other people at my church are older, married, and mostly retired. So maybe that's why they can't understand. I don't know.
