dear folks,, since GOD doesnt make you sin,then it has to be your choice and you choose to sin.. then when it comes to salvation , you also have to choose, whether you choose life or death..
deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
james 1:13-14 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. "
John 3:8 esv
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" (John 15:16).
God knew us even before this world was created, no human being is an accident
God is outside of time and He is not limited in what He does or knows like we are.
That is the whole concept behind the prophecies in the Bible.
He knows the players and the situations He will use to ultimately bring about His desired purposes.
For instance, Pharaoh was raised up for the very purposes he played out in the Exodus.
Paul even refers to this in Romans 9.17.
In Isaiah 45.1 he actually names a Persian King named Cyrus many years before he was even born and tells what he will do and that the Lord was the one who was going to raise him up and bring it about.
Daniel 8.5-8 is a prophecy about Alexander the Great and what would happen to him and it continues to describe world history and specific kings that would come and what they would do in relation the people of Israel.
In Jeremiah 1. 5 it says God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb.
In Psalms 139 the doctrines on omniscience and omnipresence of God are described.
In v 16 it says God�s eyes saw the writer�s "unformed substance" wrote down in a scroll all the days ordained to him when "yet there were none."
In Ephesians 1.4 it says God chose us in Him (those who would believe) before the foundation of the world, and compare this with Roman 8.29-30 and you will see that everything was "set" before we ever drew our first breath.
There are many verses teaching us that God knew us and planned out our lives before we were ever born and there is no doubt about that.
I could mention Judas, who was specifically raised up to do what he did, Isaac who was predicted to be born a year ahead of time and even given the name he was to be called, Jacob and Esau, John the Baptist was also named and prophesied about before he was born, and the greatest example of this is Yeshua Himself.
So, God knew us before the world was even created and no human being is an accident but has a specific role in God�s plan
So God knew us before the world was created according to the Bible, if we are to consider him both omnipotent and omniscent
Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Genesis 8:1: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man�s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?
15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!
Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."
Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"
Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."
Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."
Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"
Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)
Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."
The first utterance of the question whether man is free to will was made by Jeremiah. �O Lord,� �I know the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps�
By some mystery of Divine design the first man fell into sin. He brought severe and cursed consequences upon himself and all his posterity. He now stood legally condemned before God, making him liable to temporal and eternal punishments. As grievous as this is, this was not all. Something happened spiritually to man as well. He chose a path that affixed his desire in the way of evil, against God (Jer. 13:23; Prov. 27:22). He darkened his perceptions (Rom. 1:18-23; 1 Cor. 2:14), not absolutely, but sufficiently so as to render himself incapable of ever returning to God without Divine assistance (Heb. 11:6; John 3:17-21; 6:44; Rom. 8:2-8; Eph. 2:4,5; Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25; I Cor. 1:29-31).
But why cannot a man change of his own accord and begin to serve the living God? Is man really so blind and obstinate that nothing can bring his soul to conversion except regeneration wrought by the Holy Spirit? Yes, it is true. Apart from the irresist ible, but largely hidden, operations of the Spirit of God, none would be saved (John 3:3-8; Titus. 3:3-7).
Man: The Responsible
This is not to say that the Scriptures neglect the importance of human responsibility. Even though it is impossible for man to return to God apart from Divine assistance, he yet remains responsible to believe and obey. In fact, at times the Scriptures seem to speak as if man's well-being depended merely upon his own behavior (2 Chr. 15:2,4,15; Isa. 1:18-20; 55:6,7). However, such texts do not negate others which clearly teach the sovereignty of God in saving man. Rather, they display the glory of God. The Almighty is so transcendent that He can order the footsteps of man without violating the free agency of man (Prov. 16:9; 20:24; Jer. 10:23). "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isa. 55:9).
God: The Savior
Hence, mankind is doubly crippled. It is crippled legally before the bar of God. It is crippled morally through willful enmity against God. O wretched condition! How might this crippled race be healed? The irrevocable demands of Divine justice must be satisfied. Who will satisfy them?
Because there was no man (Isa. 59:16), God Himself worked salvation in the Person of His Son, Jesus Christ. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16). God sent His Son, His only begotten Son, to suffer and die under the wrath of the Divine curse in propitiation for the sins of mankind. All the benefits of Christian salvation issue from that historical redemptive work of the Savior. His work effects an irresistible and indestructible deliverance for all who are saved. The saved receive an effectual call, regeneration, justification, sanctification, preservation and perseverance in the way of holiness, and final glorification at the great day of Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:28-39).
Are all saved? No. The Bible clearly teaches that not all will be saved (Rev. 21:7, 8). "Many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14). Many of the lost receive a clear call to believe and repent. There are many conditional appeals in the Scriptures. But given the deaf, blind, dead and beast-like condition of the human soul, such calls would all go unheeded apart from the grace of God. Salvation does involve certain elements which are experientially realized by our faith and repentance. However, the whole of salvation, from beginning to end, including faith and repentance, is provided for entirely in the grace given through the Person and work of Jesus Christ. And this grace is not given to all.
What determines who will be saved, then? If man does not ultimately choose, then who does? God chooses (Eph. 1:4,5; Rom. 9:8-18). Just as God chose Israel to be His special people in the Old Testament, so He chooses all those who will receive the grace provided in Jesus Christ. It is this element in particular which degrades man's pompous pride, "that no man should boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and red emption, that, just as it is written, 'Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord'" (1 Cor. 1:29-31).
This brings us full circle. We are creatures and are dependent upon God for all we possess, even the salvation received through Jesus Christ. "What do you have that you did not receive? But if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" (I Cor. 4:7) "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come" (2 Cor. 5:17). "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). "So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth" (1 Cor. 3:7).
I know its a lot of reading,but read this passage for me and then tell me what you think please.
�AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.� 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God�s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, �THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.� 13 Just as it is written, �JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.�
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, �I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.� 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, �FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.� 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, �Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?� 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, �Why did you make me like this,� will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
genesis 6:5-7 5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
why would the LORD be sorry that HE made man on the earth .. if HE would of made man to be HIS puppets .. HE wouldnt of.. HE wouldnt of been upset at all if man didnt have free will and a choice..
but yet as we can see over and over again in the bible that man does indeed have a choice. choose choose choose whom you will serve. choose life or death. choose to be obedient or not.. choose JESUS or choose hell ,,, praise GOD.. we have that choice... GOD draws you to JESUS and then you have to accept HIM as your personal savior...
GOD wants you to love HIM back like HE loves all of you.. how can you show HIM you love HIM.. you choose to love HIM by following HIS commands and walkin in HIS ways.. you choose to love HIM back.. love is when you love someone for who they are..and what they mean to you.. not because youre bein made to love them back.. thats not how love works..
love gets into your heart from the hearing of the WORD.. and the reading of the WORD.. as the scriptures speak to your heart... when you heard of or read the WORD OF GOD where it said how JESUS was sent here and HOW he DIED such a horrible and torturous death for you and for i.. didnt your heart feel HIS pain , didnt you shudder at the thought.. and then when you hit your knees flowing with emotions for this man ,JESUS , GOD the SON.. who died and rose again for me and for you.. for our sins.... and when you were done prayin didnt you feel the most elated youve ever felt.. thats when youd chosen to love JESUS.... and HE embraced you..because HE knew you believed in HIM and that you truely loved HIM..
as for the pharoah well dont ya recon HE might of known the pharoahs heart and when he didnt give in to the demands to let the people go that HE then hardened his heart even moreso so that then HE could bring HIS glory forth and be known.. GOD does know the hearts of men..
it dont matter to me so awful much whether you believe GOD chose you or whether you believe you chose GOD.. the main thing is that you chose HIM..and found your salvation.
Thank you for presenting thses Truths with their Scriptural Backbone. I like to say that God does everytning but "get down on His knees" and begs us to repent. Some of us refuse.
I liken it to your car's electrical system. There is enough amperage going through your electrical system at start-up to kill a person -- yet the smallest amount of corrosion will insulate and prevent that flow of electricity.
This is an interesting post and I'd thought I'd put in my 1 � cents worth. From my POV it seems to me that you have two contrasting religious views � Calvinism and Arminianism. God knows every possible outcome to every possible timeline.
You could argue that He manipulates us like �knocking Saul down off his horse� thereby Changing Saul's beliefs or mayhaps God knocked Saul off because God knew in the end Saul would be a believer.
This argument is only 400 or so years old or is it? Has this ever been brought up before? It would be rather interesting and perhaps illuminating as to what the very people that were taught by The Apostles (The Early Church Fathers) had to say about this.
Jesus speaks about how The Shepherd only has to speak and His Flock recognizes His Voice and follows. Maybe we have intrinsically in us something that is sparked when we do get to hear God's Word to us.
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man�s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man�s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
the doctrines of grace also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God�s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
In Christ
Steve
The choosing that is mentioned always comes after god changes our hearts because we are spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins,slaves to sin Christ calls us.
God does this on purpose so no man can boast,It doesnt mean we are robots or that we cant love him,we love him even more because he saved us,not because we made a decision
listen to this;
"IM" so glad "I" made a decision to choose christ,boy aint "I" smart and wonderful to have come to the realazation that "I"
needed christ in "MY" life So "I" could spend eternity with him
Or
Thank "YOU" lord for "YOUR"grace and mercy on choosing me before the foundations of the world were set to be "YOUR" son praise and glory be to "YOU" forever and ever
In your answer to me, there is one thing you said that I totally agree with, for this is a word that was written in my heart...
There is nothing accidental, incidental, or coincidental when it comes to the Way that God interacts with our lives.
Every encounter we have, no matter how small is orchestrated as an opportunity, be we still have a choice. Every interaction we have decisions, no matter how large or how small, we have things to learn and gain, things to teach and give, even in the smallest of things.
If all things were pre written and pre destined, what ever would God or Satan do? I mean, really, What Would they have to do? Why tempt, why work hard toward anything, if it is already written?
I believe God is like the conductor of a Grand Orchestra. To the untrained eye, He appears to be a man standing up there wildly waiving His arms, but to those that understand the way or the music, it makes perfect sense and the production could not function without the Master.
I think that is what makes it all so very interesting. God can take a universe of simplistic messed up individuals all out for themselves and still manage to make the story come out the way He says it will happen. Who could do that? I mean really, who could do that? Only God.
God can let us make a choice, and another choice and another, over and over and over, and still make the out come HAPPEN.
Truly we respond to what is in our Hearts, and that whole Moses thing might look really easy, but God spent a lifetime working on each of those people to get them to follow His direction.
I truly believe He is the ultimate parent, who can give us many choices, but still is in control of all the big stuff. So while we decide who and what we play around with, He still decides when its nap time and whether or not we eat or have clothes to wear. A real simplistic view of something so enormous we cannot begin to understand, but He truly is the Master Designer.
For if it is His desire that none should perish, then why would any one perish? Because they choose not to follow Him, but to follow the one that has seduced and deceived the world.
I think we are heavily influenced by the choices we make, by those we chose to follow, by where we chose to focus our direction.
Had He not given us a choice, would He simply not just wipe out the gangrenous things that are destroying His Work? He said He would not force Himself on us, which does indeed give us a choice about our lives.
Where we do not let our children run in the street, He lets us run in the street, He just redirects a few cars. He can. He's God. He can let us have a choice and still win. He lets us choose which side we want to be on.
Be careful with what is written my Friend, for the Pharisees used the written word to try to deceive our Lord Jesus Christ, to try to trip Him up. We too can be tripped up in the Word, if we do not also follow through in our relationship with Him to follow His Ways and Trust in Him to be the Master Designer, and guide all things that come into our path.
You have such a beautiful understanding of the Word, but the Word is not meant to be complicated Steve. It is meant to be so simple a Child can follow and until we become like a Child, the knowledge might grow, but the truth will escape us.
Blessings Steve, the Word of the Lord is written in your Heart and that is such a beautiful thing!
