Genesis 18:25 "Far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked. That be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
"Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."
Jer. 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."
"Thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil." Romans 2:5-9
�But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death� (James 1:14,15).
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
I believe Adams sin caused us to inherited sinful "propensities," "inclinations," "tendencies," and "death"....but not the punishment for his sin. We became a sinful race because of it....to use your "theology speak"...depraved, but not totally depraved. We lost our connection with God because of Adams sin. We now serve only ourselves...but God is using His influence to convict us of our fallen nature and save us by grace through faith.
===Not my words here, but interesting===
The Bible says that God will "judge the world in righteousness." Psalm 9:8. But could God judge the world and be righteous if this doctrine were true? What of the heathen who are lost without ever hearing the Gospel? If this doctrine is true, the heathen are born sinners and will of necessity live in sin because of an inherited sin nature, and when they die without ever hearing the Gospel and having a chance to be saved, they are doomed to the everlasting punishment of hell. Now if it is true that they are born sinners and cannot help but sin, can God justly send them to hell? Our God-given convictions of justice war against such an idea.
Those who believe in the doctrine of original sin cannot escape the conviction that justice requires that the heathen have a chance to hear the Gospel and be saved. They cannot escape the convictions that it is unjust that the heathen be lost without at least having the opportunity to hear the Gospel. They feel that the heathen are owed the opportunity to hear the Gospel so they might be saved.
But where did this idea come from that the heathen are owed the chance to be saved? I answer: It springs up irresistibly from the belief that men are not the authors of their own sin. It springs up from the belief that men are born with a sinful nature and cannot help but sin. So since they are born with a sinful nature and cannot help but sin, they cannot deserve hell without at least a chance to hear the Gospel and be saved. But the idea that any one is owed the chance to be saved is completely foreign to the Bible. God does not owe anyone the chance to be saved. He does not save anyone to satisfy justice. Jesus did not die for wicked men because he owed them a chance to be saved, but because of his love, mercy, and grace.
But those who believe in the doctrine of original sin find themselves with compelling convictions that contradict the fundamental Bible doctrine of God's righteousness in judging the heathen. The doctrine of original sin compels them to believe that it is not just for the heathen to be judged without a chance to be saved. And, in fact, if the doctrine of original sin were true, it would not be just to condemn the heathen without a chance to hear the Gospel and be saved. Moreover, if the doctrine of original sin were true, salvation would be on the grounds of justice rather than grace. The justice of God would require that God not only make sure that all mankind have a chance to hear the Gospel, but it would also require that God provide grace (or justice) of such a magnitude that ALL men(including heathens) would have to be certainly and irresistibly be saved.
The doctrine of original sin makes Jesus a sinner. If the doctrine of original sin is true, then Mary was also born a sinner; and if a sinner always produces another sinner, and if all those who are born of woman are born sinners, then there is no way to escape the conclusion that Jesus also was born a sinner. The advocates of original sin are also making Jesus a sinner because he partook of the same human nature as other men.
Jesus was a man. He was born of a woman. He was the seed of Abraham, the offspring of David, descended from Adam. Matt. 1:1, Rom. 1:3, Heb. 2:16, Rev. 22:16. The humanity of Christ is fully and unequivocably taught in the Bible, and to teach the doctrine that men are born sinners is to teach the blasphemy that "the man Christ Jesus" was born a sinner.
The Bible says, "Verily he took not on him the nature of angels but the seed of Abraham." Heb. 2:16. "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest." Heb. 2:17. "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." Heb. 2:14. "For both he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren." Heb. 2:11. "For we have not an high priest which can not be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we, yet without sin." Heb. 4:15.
The Bible teaches that Christ was, in all respects, a real man, possessing both a human body and a human soul, and with all the attributes of a man. He was born of a woman. He was nourished and cared for by his mother, as other men are. He was circumcised according to the law of Moses. He was once an infant in knowledge, for he grew both in Wisdom and in stature. He hungered, he thirsted, he ate, he drank, he labored, he slept, he grew tired, and he lived and died like other men. He was recognized as a man and a Jew by other men. "Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be make like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." "For we have not an high priest which can not be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren." Heb. 2:17, 4:15, 2:11.
It is a serious error to deny the deity of Christ. One cannot be a Christian and deny his deity. John taught that it is equally serious to deny the humanity of Christ. "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God." I John 4:2, 3. "Many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. II John 7.
The doctrine of Christ's human nature is fully attested in the Bible. Nevertheless, because of their belief that men are born sinners and that human nature or the flesh is inherently sinful, the defenders of the doctrine of original sin must deny in some way or another the real humanity of Christ and that he came in human flesh like other men. Phil. 2:6-8, I Tim. 3:16, Gal. 4:4, John 1:14, I John 4:2-3, II John 7.
Now you are just arguing to be arguing,I pointed out that jesus paid the penalty for our sins,wich flys directly in the face of the GENERAL PRINCIPLE in ezekeil,And instead of refuting it,you correct my phraseology,also,I point out several consequences of the original sin that we still see in effect today!You are not being intellectually honest,you say you want the truth at all cost,but your so bent on defending your position,that you are blinded to that truth,as you are to the fact that even in a lot of the verses you try to use,their are statements that point to gods choice of his elect.
Adam and eve were given dominion over the entire creation,as a result of their sin,the whole world suffered.paul tells us
"for the creation was subjected to futility,not willingly,but because of him that subjected it in hope;because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of god.for we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now(romans 8;20-22)
The whole creation groans as it awaits the full redemption of man.When man sinned,the repercussions of the sin were felt throughout the whole range of mans domain.Because of adams sins,not only do we suffer,but lions, elephants ,butterflys and puppy dogs,they do not ask for the suffering,they were hurt by the fall of their master
That we suffer as a result of adams sin is explicitly taught in the new testament.In romans 5 for example Paul makes the following observations.
Through one man sin entered the world,and death through sin(verse 12)
by one mans offense many died(verse 15)
through one mans offense,judgement came to all men,resulting in condemnation(verse 18)
by one mans disobediance,many were made sinners(verse 19)
there is no way to avoid the obvious teaching of scripture,that adams sin had dreadful consequences for his decendants.It is precisely because of the abundance of such biblical statements that virtually every christian body has composed some doctrine of original sin linked to the fall of adam
If you are going to continue to deny the doctrine of original sin,even after the biblical evidence is thrown directly in your face,then I question your true motives behind your,overly spirited yet greatly underinformed refutes of my proofs,
you need to ask yourself,why is it so important to be right,when their is so much evidence to the contrary?
could it be pride?Or maybe,it makes god in to someone I didnt want him to be!Pray about it my friend,and think hard,If I knew I would die in the next hour,would I still be engaging in such foolish arguements?
Or could it be that nothing that comes out of the mouth of those evil sunday keepers could ever possibly be true!Ellen white is a blasphemer!She is a false teacher,do not follow her,you are being mislead,Works come from salvation and do not in anyway earn salvation!
I'm not arguing with you about the effects of Adams sin. I believe we have a sinful nature. But I would like to know where we are responsible for Adams sin. We have the effects of Adams sin. Inherited tendencies, pain and suffering, no direct contact with God...and so on. But there is very little, if not no support for God taking our free will away. I would call it supposition but...you could accuse me of the same thing so...I won't point fingers. We are all disgusting sinners, but we are sinners because of free will. And we can't come to God because there is nothing good left in us. But He doesn't leave us alone in our sinful ways. Through influence, through preaching, through manifestations of His power, He brings us the knowledge of Himself, His sacrifice, and His law. His law inspires the guilt of sin. We would not know sin except through the law. His sacrifice inspires love for Him. He loved us so much that He died to save us. If we didn't have love we would serve Him out of fear. His power inspires respect for His word. Everything He says we can believe is the truth, because He is perfect in all His ways. So we agree on most things right? I just believe that God doesn't force us to be saved. I believe we have to have faith to be saved, and I think the bible agrees with me. Faith isn't works. In fact, James and Paul almost have a little battle about it. Paul is like "Works without faith means nothing", and James is like "Faith without works is dead". I would believe your view, but I don't see any evidence for it. Believing by faith is not "being under the law". Sorry. Maybe I'm blind. But maybe you are, too. I would think it would be pride if you won't admit that. I'm not saying you aren't saved. I'm saying your doctrines might be wrong. You think Catholics are wrong. Just pretend I'm you, and you're a Catholic.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
I thought we all sinned Adams sin? Weren't we all there?
18Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
I thought Jesus sacrifice only applied to a few?
Even in a lot of the verses you try to use. And that's really the only one you have to support that belief. It doesn't do a very good job of it either. I would like to know how you know that Ezekiel is a general principle? Jesus chose to die for our sins, He was not born with our sins. That fits the chapters in Ezekiel. "Greater love hath no man then this, that he lay down his life for his friends". So your assumption that Ezekiel doesn't fit with salvation isn't accurate, right? I'm pretty sure God wouldn't just speak to hear His own voice. The new testament says the same thing.
"you need to ask yourself,why is it so important to be right,when their is so much evidence to the contrary?"
It's important for the truth to be spoken. "The foolishness of preaching". It's important to me because I see a lot of people that hate God because of your beliefs, the beliefs I don't see evidence for. Once again. I'm not arguing with you to prove I'm right. Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't care about you. It's other random people that might read this that I'm concerned about. They will hear truth, whether it's what you say or what I say. And I am encouraged to study my bible. I can thank you for allowing me to put my thoughts into words. Practice. That's good, right? While I do think I AM right, I'm not arguing with you to prove it to you. Just pretend I'm playing the devils advocate. And just let me know if you get tired of it.:laugh: I think it's been awesome so far. I was in doubt, now I'm not. I know you guys like to start questioning motives:goofball:, but I think "study" and "witness" are good ones. Maybe some Catholics will read this and say "Go original sin!", or maybe they'll read it and convert to protestantism. Either way. It's called edification. We all learn. We all become more solid in our faith, more solid in what we believe. And it should drive us into the bible to study. Those are all good things. But if you want to quit becoming stronger in your beliefs and sharing them publicly then that's ok.:ribbit::goofball::laugh:
I'm sorry if any of this comes off as angry sometimes, but really...the only time I was angry was when I was being told that the KJV bible is worthless. Other times I've been frustrated maybe, but not angry. And if you knew me you'd know it's not pride motivating me. I do think of you as a christian brother, don't get me wrong. But I'm not just going to be quiet if I think you're in error, and I hope you're doing the same for me. That's what Paul would do. Just think of this as a bible study between brothers...and where are the sisters at?
I am not angry,but I am convinced that you belong to a cult!Ellen G. White teaches us sunday worshippers are bound for hell,and we will eventually try to hunt you down and kill you!Also she twist and turns the bible in a multitude of crazy ways,she teaches a works based salvation(faith and works)wich the bible does not teach!She also teaches that only SDA are the true children of god,everyone else is hellbound,of course she changes the definition of hell to something else,wich is what she does with all scripture!She changes scripture!I would suggest you do some research brother,your immortal soul hangs in the balance.You dont have to be a calvinist to go to heaven,but you do have to beleive that Christs sacrifice alone is what saves you,not works,so no man can boast.I implore you to go to the ex-seventh day adventist site and do some research.I did and it was extremely enlightening.I will no longer converse with you,as I beleive you are terribly mislead by these teachings and I dont want you to mislead others!I will pray for you
The sisters have wandered to greener pastures and have been payin the rest of us more attention since you two started lockin horns... I guess what I'm trying to say is thanks guys! LOL It's been an interesting read for me hearing opinions from both sides of the issue.
Wow...um...I honestly don't know what to say to that. Why would you think that an ex-Adventist would say good things? I have read ex-Adventists sites. Ok...your belief system is from Calvin. Are you a cult?
#1 - Ellen White is not our church leader. She has a lot of books but we don't regard them higher then the bible. Just like I hope you wouldn't believe Calvin explicitly.
#2 - Sunday-goers are not going hell. But honestly? If you study revelation you will see that it will come down to a choice at the end. We either serve God and His commandments(When it's talking about "hands" and "foreheads" it's talking what we do and think. Who we serve with our minds and with our hands), or we serve man-made traditions.
#3 - She is not saying works save us. But after you accept God's grace to cover your sin, i.e. be saved...do you think you can go to heaven if you don't follow God/Jesus' commands? If you kept living in sin? Just wondering. We are saved by grace, but our reward is based on how we live. If you're "saved" and you continue in sin/unbelief, your branch will be cut off of the vine. The bible is pretty clear to me. You say, "well, we do it automatically"...yeah...well I don't see a whole lot of people "automatically" living like the apostles did. Must not be very many that are truly saved.
#4 - SDAs are not the only ones that will be saved, and she never says that. There are many people from every denomination that are/will be saved. Even some people that have never read the bible before. What she was saying is that at the end, the way God shows who are His believers is by shaking them out of their errant denominations and putting them all back into His commandments. So at the end, while all Christians won't be SDA's, they will all be keeping ALL of God's commandments. I just don't understand. Out of all the stuff I've been saying, you'd think you'd pick up on the law stuff..."we keep all the commands automatically except one"? WE ARE NOT saved be works, but our works can lose us. Study revelation. Sunday laws are the mark. Just watch. The Catholics will do it in Europe, and protestants will do it here. It's in prophecy. The one major belief shared by Catholics and most protestants is Sunday.
#5 - I believe an eternal hell is unbiblical.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10 The dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. ... For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave.
John 5:28, 29 All that are in the grave shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.
Acts 2:34 . For David is not ascended into the heavens.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Ezekiel 18:4 . The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 . We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, ... and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
John 11:11, 14 . Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; ... Lazarus is dead.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
2 Samuel 7:12 Thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 Them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The Saved /
--------------------
The Unsaved /
2 Peter 2:6 . And turning the cities of sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.
John 12:48 . The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to ... reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.
Matthew 13:40-42 So shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather ... them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire.
John 5:28, 29 . The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the dead shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; ... they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Job 21:30, 32 The wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. ... Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Psalms 37:10, 20 . For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be. ... But the wicked shall perish, ... into smoke shall they consume away.
Malachi 4:1, 3 The day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; ... and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up. ... And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.
Revelation 20:9 . They went up on the breadth of the city, and compassed the camp of the saints about, ... and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
2 Peter 3:10 The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Isaiah 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
Matthew 10:28 Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
The unsaved are not tortured forever and ever throughout eternity. They are punished each according to his works. And then it's over. God will destroy evil when the city of God rests on this earth. The unsaved will be resurrected and punished right there. Then God will make everything new. You say they are there right now. Before God even judges them. Cain has been burning 6,000 years longer then Hitler. Cain killed one man. Hitler was responsible for millions. Sound fair? Nope. God says we will be judged according to our works. It's not fair because it's not true.
If you don't believe what revelation says then all I can say is wait and see. But I have to ask you again. Why do you worship on Sunday? Where are the bible texts? Don't throw "we're not under the law" at me because then I have to ask AGAIN if it's ok to worship idols since we're not under the law, and we all know what the answer to that is. The Catholic church glories in the fact the she changed the day. Show me verses. The disciples kept the Sabbath after Jesus died and went back to heaven. You'd think He would have mentioned something about "oh, and go to church on Sunday" while He was ascending in the clouds. Jesus even kept the Sabbath in the grave...rested in the grave on the Sabbath day. We must walk as He walked, and nowhere does it say to keep Sunday. Show me a text. Not trying to change the subject, this kinda proves my point. Are you obeying God, or are you following traditions of a man? Not too late to change. I would.
P.S. Not a cult. What site was it? Maybe I should look up ex-Calvinist sites to be fair. I wonder what they say about you guys? It's wonderful how "name calling" discredits people isn't it? Just yell "Cult! Silence heretic!", and you win. Ok. Well...I'm going to go rest my evil brainwashed mind:dunce::devil::angeldevil::rolleyes::zzzz:
The doctrine of the imputation of Adam's sin means that when Adam first sinned, that sin (and its blame) was rightly regarded by God to be our sin as well. John Piper writes:
The problem with the human race is not most deeply that everybody does various kinds of sins�those sins are real, they are huge and they are enough to condemn us. Paul is very concerned about them. But the deepest problem is that behind all our depravity and all our guilt and all our sinning, there is a deep mysterious connection with Adam whose sin became our sin and whose judgment became our judgment. (John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 1")
God ordains that that there be a union of some kind that makes Adam's sin to be our sin so that our condemnation is just. ("Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 5")
The biblical basis for this doctrine of imputed sin is discussed thoroughly in John Piper's five sermons on Romans 5:12-21. Here we will simply seek to summarize some of the primary evidence from this text.
Sin Entered the World Through One Man
First, Paul states in 5:12 that all sinned in Adam: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Paul seems to be equating the "because all sinned" with "through one man sin entered into the world."
Sin is Not Imputed Where There is no Law
Second, in verses 13-14 Paul adds a clarification which confirms that he does indeed have the imputation of Adam's sin in view in the phrase "because all sinned" rather than our individual sins. He states: "For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." In other words, Paul concedes that personal sin was prevalent in the world before Moses ("until the Law sin was in the world..."). But he adds that these personal sins were not the ultimate reason people died in that time period: "But sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses." As Piper summarizes:
People died even though their own individual sins against the Mosaic law were not the reason for dying; they weren't counted. Instead, the reason all died is because all sinned in Adam. Adam's sin was imputed to them. (John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 2")
Death Reigned Even Over Those Who Did Not Sin Like Adam
Third, Paul's statement at the end of verse 14 further clarifies that he does not have personal sins in view as the reason for human death: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." Piper notes:
In other words, yes Paul concedes that there are other kinds of laws before the Mosaic Law, and yes people broke those laws, and yes, one could argue that these sins are the root cause of death and condemnation in the world. But, Paul says, there is a problem with that view, because death reigned "even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." There are those who died without seeing a law and choosing to sin against it.
Who are they? I think the group of people begging for an explanation is infants. Infants died. They could not understand personal revelation. They could not read the law on their hearts and choose to obey or disobey it. Yet they died. Why? Paul answers: the sin of Adam and the imputation of that sin to the human race. In other words, death reigned over all humans, even over those who did not sin against a known and understood law. Therefore, the conclusion is, to use the words of verse 18: "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men." (Ibid)
So the purpose of verses 13 and 14 are to clarify verse 12 in this way:
At the end of verse 12 the words, "death spread to all men, because all sinned" mean that "death spread to all because all sinned in Adam." Death is not first and most deeply because of our own individual sinning, but because of what happened in Adam. (Ibid)
Paul's Emphasis Upon the One Transgression
Fourth, at least five times in the following verses Paul says that death comes upon all humans because of the one sin of Adam:
Verse 15: by the transgression of the one the many died
Verse 16: the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation
Verse 17: by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one
Verse 18: through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men
We are all condemned not ultimately because of our individual sins, but because of one sin (verse 18). We die not ultimately because of personal sins, but because of Adam's one transgression (verse 17). It is not ultimately from our personal sins that we die, but rather "by the transgression of the one the many died." Paul states over and over again that it is because of one sin that death and condemnation belong to us all. In other words, we are connected to Adam such that his one sin is regarded as our sin and we are worthy of condemnation for it.
The Direct Statement of Verse 19
Fifth, verse 19 provides us with a direct statement of imputation:
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Paul here says that we are made sinners by the sin of Adam. Due to his disobedience, we are regarded as sinners. We cannot take "made sinners" here to be referring to original sin in which we become inherently sinful because it is paralleled with "made righteous." The phrase "made righteous" in this context is referring to the great truth of justification. Justification does not concern a change in our characters, the infusion of something inherent in us. Rather, it involves a change in our standing before God. In justification, God declares us righteous because He imputes to us the righteousness of Christ--not because He makes us internally righteous (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21). Thus, when Paul says "made righteous" here, he means "imputed with righteousness" not "infused with righteousness." Since "made sinners" is paralleled with "made righteous," it must also be referring to imputation. Thus, Paul is saying that we are all made sinners in the sense that we are imputed with Adam's sin.
a few thoughts i would like to share...i have to confess i didnt read the whole thread - but, i read a few posts and think i have the general gist so here goes lol...apologies if any/all of this has already been reiterated
1) man was created perfect, in gods image, sinless in nature with a direct connection to god. he was created for relationship with god - to love him and be loved in return. perfect love and relationship however requires choice so in order for the relationship not to be automatic god had to put the possibility of sin and separation (tree of knowledge of good and evil) within reach of man.
2) man (adam) sinned by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil - this was the one thing he was specifically instructed NOT to do by god - this sin lead to separation from god for adam and all of humanity down the line. picture it as being put into a cage of sin - because adam and eve were in effect in the cage, all of their offspring was by default born into this cage as well, and their grandchildren and on down the line. we had given the keys to the world - that we were supposed to rule over - to the enemy, satan and placed ourselves in bondage.
3) because of this all of mankind is sinful in nature from the moment of their birth. we sin without ever trying to or meaning to, we are sinful unconsciously. nothing we can do on our own can ever change that. this is why jesus had to come. gods plan of salvation.
4) because manking was sinful by nature, in order to escape that jesus could not be born in the conventional way - or he would have been trapped in the sinful nature of man just the same as everyone else. god had to break the human bloodline in order for jesus to be born outside the "cage" of sin. he was born from a virgin in order to be free from sin - this allowed him to be fully man, and fully god while not being trapped in the same way that the rest of humanity was trapped. his mission was to recover the keys to the cage that we were trapped in and open the door so that we could again have free access to god, salvation and all that he has for us. he accomplished this by dying on the cross and rising again and defeating satan once and for all.
5) now the cage is open for us - mankind is still born in separation from god, however the way has been made clear for us to reconnect with god - it is up to us whether or not we walk out of the cage and into the freedom that god offers us. sadly, many people dont realize this and still live as though the cage were locked tight with no way out.
6) we all have free will and it is up to us whether or not we accept gods free gift of salvation. god knows who is going to be saved and who is not and while it is true that many peopkle die and have died each day without hearing the gospel, god is god and his ways are not our ways - he is all powerful and first of all it is his perogative whether or not we get a chance at salvation - not with that in mind, he loves us and the bible says he desires all to be saved - whose to say what methods he uses to enable the gospel to be heard to those who havent heard it in the conventional way. after all, all creation speaks to the glory of god according to the bible. and god can speak through dreams, visions, angels and who knows what other means. regardless it is not our place to judge or questioin - he is god. all powerful, all knowing and the creator of us - who are we to question the creator of all of life and everything we know?! we are only resposible for our life and what we do with it - i mean to spend mine loving god, getting to know him more and better and serving him with everything i am.
