Thread: IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
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IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 23 Aug, 2009 09:41 AM
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
The answer as you will shortly learn, is "NO!"
There has been much debate over the tongues of what must be referred to a "modern pentecostalism!" We are not going to conduct an indepth exhaustive exposition of the subject of tongues, at this point, for it is not necessary to prove this one point, and that is, "modern pentecostals cannot all speak with 'THE GIFT OF TONGUES!'"
Please, allow me to explain.
First of all, I was in what may be termed "a pentecostal church," for about 11 years, so I know all about the subject of tongues, and that the scripture is VERY CLEAR about the spiritual gifts, and that "the tongues" that all pentecostals are encouraged to get, in order to demonstrate that one is "filled with the spirit," cannot be biblical, or valid.
Here is the passage Paul wrote, when he was confronted with the same, "so-called pentecostals," then, as we are now. There were men who claimed to represent the Holy Spirit, but something was very wrong with their tongues, as it is still the case, today. So-called charismatic or spirit-filled churches were springing up, claiming that they were pentecostals, with the gifts of the spirit; and so Paul addressed the administration of the gifts of the Spirit, and as you are about to learn, Paul shotdown their claims, saying that there was no such thing as everyone having the gift of tongues, at the same time.
"NOW THERE ARE DIVERSITIES OF GIFTS, BUT THE SAME SPIRIT. AND THERE ARE DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATION, BUT THE SAME LORD. AND THERE ARE DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, BUT IT IS THE SAME GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL. BUT THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO EVERY MAN TO PROFIT WITHAL. FOR TO ONE IS GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT THE WORD OF WISDOM; TO ANOTHER THE WORD OF KNOWLEDGE; TO ANOTHER FAITH BY THE SAME SPIRIT; TO ANOTHER THE GIFTS OF HEALING; TO ANOTHER THE WORKINGS OF MIRACLES; TO ANOTHER PROPHECY; TO ANOTHER DISCERNING OF SPIRITS; TO ANOTHER DIVERS KINDS OF TONGUES; TO ANOTHER THE INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES: BUT ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND SELFSAME SPIRIT, DIVIDING TO EVERY MAN SEVERALLY AS HE WILLS!" [I Cor 12:4-11]
The GIFT OF TONGUES, was administered, SEVERALLY as the Spirit was want to do, therefore, it was NEVER GIVEN TO ALL BELIEVERS - in any church, which is what the pentecostals, each claim they possessed, in Paul's day, in every church, and that they still claim to this day!
So, you see, not all pentecostals cant have the same gift, for they were never adminstered in such a way!
Not all pentecostals are in fact, even true believers, as is evident by this passage where Jesus Christ, Himself says: "NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME, LORD, WILL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN;BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. MANY WILL SAY TO ME IN THAT DAY, LORD, LORD, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN THY NAME? AND IN THY NAME CAST OUT DEVILS? AND IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? AND I WILL PROFESS UNTO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY!" [Matt 7:21-23]
Please notice that Jesus did not say that He would tell them to "depart because we had a problem," or because "you backslid"; He said that He will tell them that He "NEVER KNEW THEM!" For they are not of God, and their claims to "the gifts of the Spirit," are "iniquity," to Him, and His Father, which is in heaven!
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 04:03 PM
@walter - Thats a completely new perspective, thanks a lot for that insight! I never knew that.
@kdhny - My problem with pentecostals is that they say that if I'm a true believer I should also speak in tongues. Is that written in the Bible? And besides they think its special to speak in tongues. And why only tongues? Clearly in the new testament tongues is seen kind of the lowest of the gifts of the Holy Spirit? So why the unnecessary exaltation of tongues which is not there in the Bible? Besides why should we try and get the gift of the Holy Spirit, If God wants, won't he give us? It is written that the Holy Spirit gives these gifts as he pleases, so its not of us to demand it and seek for it as a sign. And if you think of it, tongues can be easily faked. All the other gifts and signs which are said to accompany involve something supernatural and it needs adequate proof, but if today I can speak something which no one can understand and say that its tongues, I'm sure people will believe me. And people do fake tongues, not that I'm saying that all do, but lots do. And besides if I want something very badly and go after it and thinks that is what God wants, though it might not be what he wants, I will not rest until I get it. In such a matter I can fall into error and sin. So its not necessary that everyone who claims to speak in tongues today is speaking from the right Spirit too. And it does not mean that if you speak in tongues from a different spirit you are possessed either. And true Tongues has to got to do with salvation. Only a believer can speak in tongues, that is what the Bible says, so if a person who speaks in tongues today is tomorrow an unbeliever, do you think that he spoke in tongues from the right Spirit?? And are you sure everyone who speaks in tongues is a believer?
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 06:34 PM
Dear kdhny11
Ok, I don't know how you get the idea that I oppose speaking in tongue in modern time. Perhaps, you mistook 1 Cor 13:8, "...whether they are tongues, they will cease..." in my writings. You don't have a Greek bible? First, it never put a time line, so it is never meant to be no tongue in modern time. It simply indicate at certain time there is no tongue. Then at that time there is no Christian? To make one thing clear, I did speak in tongue before.
Secondly, you provided no biblical account or teachings that every Christian shall speak in tongue. All you did is to assert that nobody can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit, which does not means it must be in different tongue. It can in mother tongue or known tongue which is not the speaking in tongue I understood.
Then you start to base on experience. Let's go into historical account.
Irenaeus (AD 140-203) said he had heard that some
spoke in tongues. But he himself did not. Many other early fathers had teach the same teachings that these gifts are not for everyone. One of them was Ambrose. So are you saying these early teachings are wrong and you are correct?
Again, many people from the early churches and after reformation (therefore they come from all ages and background) do not believe speaking in tongue is for everyone. Yes they believe there is such gift but it is not for every believer. Are you saying all of them were wrong and you are correct base on few tens of years of experience, so far away from the first coming of Christ?
Remember anything not from faith is sin. I cannot see how bible said that every Christians have this gift. And I tell by asserting tongue speaking, you will reject many man of God just because they cannot speak in tongue. You should reconsider your view of tongue speaking and baptism of the Holy Spirit.
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Ephesians 1:13.
And you cannot run away from the fact, Holy Spirit enter us as soon as we accepted the Gospel. So how many people speak in tongue right after they repent? very little!
How can you pray for gift? Paul written pursue love, desire gifts. What should we pray for is love. Gift is given at the discretion of Holy Spirit. You are forcing the Holy Spirit to give you gift.
Jesus said that those who want a sign, the only sign would be given is the sign of Jonah.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 09:50 PM
Hi Don,
Some other interesting facts about the "Gifts". We know from historical documents of the Early Church Fathers of the first 300 years that the supernatural gifts that were given during the Apostles time vanished soon after their death. In fact the only mention we have of them (gifts) is concerning cults that were speaking in gibberish. From the time the Apostles of Christ died until the late 1700s AD tongues and the other supernatural gifts did not exist until the "Irvinites", a known heretical group in Scotland, claimed that there was a new movement of the Holy Spirit and hence the birth of the Charismatic movement began. It is also from this group that spawned the false teaching of the Pre-Trib Rapture. But that is another discussion. ;-)
Let's get some things straight about the "Supernatural Gifts" of the Holy Spirit and let's focus on "Tongues". One of the arguments in the many debates I have had in this area is that Charismatics/Pentecostals rely heavily on their so called "experience" and not sound properly exegeted scriptures. So what is a tongue from the Biblical perspective?
Tongue is a language, an actual language spoken upon the Earth. It is not an angelic language and it is not a "prayer language" and it certainly is not some Gibberish which is what is the vast majority of what Pentecostals and Charismatics speak when they claim they speak in "tongues". It is interesting to note that Mormons also claim to speak in tongues and yet they deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Cults speak in the same tongues spoken by charismatics and yet they deny Christ and even God. A certain segment of Roman Catholics speak also in this Gibberish and yet we know that the doctrines of Rome are not Christian as they teach a works plus faith salvation.
Let's deal with those issues.
1 Cor 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
(KJV)
Paul was using hyperbole here, he was not expecting anyone to take him literally just like when Jesus said if your eye offended then to pluck it out. He was not expecting anyone to speak in some kind of Angelic or heavenly language. Paul was using extreme things to illustrate the point that if you could do all these things and do not have love then it means nothing.
"Prayer Language": The passage below is often used by Charismatics and Pentecostals to support their claim of a Prayer language. Let's look.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. NKJV
It is important to notice that nowhere is it stated that the individual speaks in some kind of Prayer Language. Groanings are just what they are... groanings ...moanings...not language. Also it says it is the Holy Spirit that makes the intercession on our behalf. Talk about grossly taking a passage of scripture out of context and reading into it things that are simply not there nor supported by the Grammar of the Greek Text.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 28 Aug, 2009 03:50 AM
dear folks, i must say that im very surprised that folks dont believe in gifts .. i am a pentecostol and i believe in the gifts.. i also believe that GOD can work through anyone HE so chooses to use the gifts and even perform miracles to this day as HE so chooses and to glorify HIS name.
now the thing is we should never become prideful in the fact that we may have a certain gift and others may not. because every believer has a gift or gifts.. and its surely nothing we done to make ourselves have any gifts.. but yet it is the HOLY SPIRIT in each one of us that distributes to each according to HIS will.
and this is where pentecostols seem to rub folks the wrong way lots of times... see im a pentecostol and i dont have the gift of tongues.. i believe in it though and have witnessed it before and it is in the bible ..
but even so ive had even my pentecostol brothers and sisters to look down at me for not havin the gift of tongues.. and sayin i wasnt filled with the HOLY SPIRIT as much as them.. even turned down as a potential mate because of said fact... hehe
what im here to say today is that each one of us who are saved is filled with the HOLY SPIRIT... filled to the brim baby..hehe see i believe we all get the same amount of HOLY SPIRIT when we become saved.. i dont see GOD short changin anyone in the amount of HOLY SPIRIT given...do you? do you believe that HE would give some saved folks less of the HOLY SPIRIT and set them up to better fail? to short change em of the SPIRIT? i dont believe that.. it is continuely spoken of that we are all equal .. those that are saved..
so i believe we are all filled to the brim with the HOLY SPIRIT .. what happens though is we sometimes tend to create negative responses to the SPIRIT.. we have the power of the HOLY SPIRIT within us ,but yet we tend to stifle that power at times..
if you ignore the presense of the HOLY SPIRIT within you.. when the presense is ignored then youll miss out on alot. when GOD builds a fire in your heart dont quench it out.. dont pour water on the divine spark..
have you ever felt like you needed to pray or wanted to pray all of a sudden? that was the HOLY SPIRIT nudgun you .. did you listen and go ahead and pray then? or did you put it off? you ever felt the hunger to read the word of GOD? but for some reason you got busy or whatever else and you postponed the reading of the word/ if so you quenched the SPIRIT..
have you ever been around unsaved folks and felt like maybe you should speak up and tell them about JESUS.and then you didnt.. then you quenched the SPIRIT again..
heres how you can utilize the HOLY SPIRIT within you..
you must have faith ,that you belive that GODS power is able and available to you through the HOLY SPIRIT.
prayer , when youre in a genuine prayer mode then you are in a spiritual atmosphere in your heart then to allow the HOLY SPIRIT to toutch your mind and your emotions and your will and your heart.. see youre being receptive to the SPIRIT and not quenching HIM out... the last step is for us to be obedient... it is only when we are obedient and listen to and follow the nudgings that we allow the HOLY SPIRIT to move in us and move us to take action on it..
so see i believe we all are filled with the HOLY SPIRIT but we do tend to stifle and push down HIM.. instead of letting HIM move us to do the will of GOD and unleash the full power of the HOLY SPIRIT within us.... the power of GOD is able and available to you , have faith in HIM and pray often and be obedient to HIM when HE is talkin to ya.. and the more you listen to HIM the more youll come to trust HIM and then the more you will do for HIM and HIS will be done.. amen
dont let pride get in the way .. let the HOLY SPIRIT shine forth from you and dont put HIS light out like youd put your fingers together and put a candles light out.. be receptive folks..
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 28 Aug, 2009 05:03 AM
Dear Walter,
impressive. But then there are several important points you missed:
1. Yes, in Acts, distribution of gifts always require the presence of Apostle. But remember that Acts is the recording of acts of Apostle and they concentrate on this, that's why Apostle always presence. It is not doctrinal to conclude that distribution of gifts stop after the death of the Apostles. Gift is given at the discretion of Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:11) not due to the presence of Apostle (even then, in the website u give, did not agree with this). Laying hands by the Apostles can lead to receiving of gifts because they enjoy a special relation with God. Is the teaching correct? We can see that in Joel 2:28 that gift may come to people w/o going through apostle but God pours His spirit directly to human. An example: the two prophets in Revelation, where were the apostles?
2. Gifts are still available today. Gifts of helps and administration are spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:28). Are you saying that this gift is no longer available?
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 28 Aug, 2009 06:10 AM
Hey Ecc,
See man,I knew you had it in you,your being nicer,yet making your point,your not a secret agent for god,just an inteligent man with a lot to say that can benifit many if phrased correctly,good job!
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 28 Aug, 2009 12:58 PM
Hi all, I would encourage you guys to check out this video on speaking in tongues by Tim Conway. It's very Biblically balanced:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMkpn0iZonA
Long story made short, I believe some people have the gift, but I also believe that if you have the gift, that it should be done decently and in order...
However, keep in mind that you shouldn't replace Scripture with experiences, because there are times when people have translated some of these tongue speakers, and they were blaspheming God.
Just be careful, and Biblically discerning. God bless.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 28 Aug, 2009 02:33 PM
Hi Daniel,
The web site is my Pastor's and we are both in agreement so i am not sure what you are getting at. Please clarify.
You said:
1. Yes, in Acts, distribution of gifts always require the presence of Apostle. But remember that Acts is the recording of acts of Apostle and they concentrate on this, that's why Apostle always presence. It is not doctrinal to conclude that distribution of gifts stop after the death of the Apostles.
WALTER: Actually is doctrinally correct to state that the distribution of the gifts died out with the Apostles because it was only through the Apostles that the Holy Spirit distributed gifts. Additionally the Apostles did not have the power to pass on the power for others to pass on the power. The persons who received the gifts when the Apostles laid hands upon them did not in turn have the power to pass on the gifts to anyone else only the ability to exercise the gifts they received. There is no Apostolic succession.
Remember what Simon observed.
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw THAT THROUGH the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
Simon made an important observation. It was through the laying on of the Apostles hands that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were given. These were supernatural gifts. There are differences in gifts, some supernatural and some are not. If you look at the church of Rome you will see that they had not received any of the supernatural gifts that the Corinthian church had. Why? Because no Apostle of Christ had laid hands upon them. That is one of the reason why the Apostle Paul wanted to go to Rome....
Romans 1: 11 For I long to see you, THAT I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established�
This church had long been in operation without being established by an Apostle and yet the Holy Spirit had not given them any supernatural gifts. If the laying on of the Apostles hands were not necessary then this church would have already been operating the various supernatural gifts, but they weren't. Why? Because God's method of the distribution of the supernatural gifts was through the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ. There were two exceptions which are clearly understandable but after that no one ever received any supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit unless one of the 12 Apostles of Christ personally laid their hands upon them. That is the Biblical evidence.
DANIEL: Gift is given at the discretion of Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:11) not due to the presence of Apostle (even then, in the website u give, did not agree with this). Laying hands by the Apostles can lead to receiving of gifts because they enjoy a special relation with God. Is the teaching correct?
WALTER: 1 Cor 12:11 is an explanation of the gifts but not the distribution of them. The type of gift is certainly at the discretion of the Holy Spirit but not how He distributes them. Mark 16 explains why God chose the distribution to be through the laying on of the Apostles hands which I covered in a previous post.
DANIEL: We can see that in Joel 2:28 that gift may come to people w/o going through apostle but God pours His spirit directly to human. An example: the two prophets in Revelation, where were the apostles?
WALTER: Joel 2:28 is a prophesy that was fulfilled in Acts 2. This is the very first time the Holy Spirit had been given to New Testament believers so naturally the Apostles did not have to lay hands upon them for they too had to receive Him, but they were still present obviously. This is an understandable exception. Early on as well when Peter was not getting with the program so to speak, the Holy Spirit had to move ahead of Peter and gave gifts to Gentile Christians to demonstrate to Peter that they were equal with the Jewish Christians. These are the only two exceptions in the entire New Testament where the Holy Spirit did not go through the Apostles laying on of their hands to impart supernatural spiritual gifts. After these two situations, at no time did anyone receive any supernatural gifts from the Holy Spirit unless one of the 12 Apostles of Christ personally laid hands upon them. That is the biblical record and the fact that Simon made a profound observation which proves my point and the fact that Mark also made it clear that ..
Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working WITH THEM [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen [brackets mine.]
DANIEL: 2. Gifts are still available today. Gifts of helps and administration are spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12:28). Are you saying that this gift is no longer available?
WALTER: There are differences of gifts. There are some that were only given through the 12 Apostles of Christ while others not so. Compare the Roman church to the Corinthian church.
Paul even made it clear that certain gifts would cease "when that which is perfect comes" and the gift of tongues would cease all on their own before "that which is perfect comes".
I am not saying that God could not revive certain gifts like tongues today since Israel is a nation again. Let me quote how my Pastor put it.
"We take no definite position on whether God has or may at some point give similar gifts. But, we see nothing in Scripture to indicate a prophesied restoration of the gifts in the end times. The exception, of course, being the "two witnesses" in Revelation who will prophesy for 1,260 days, as forerunners to Christ's second coming.
The gifts recorded in the New Testament were permanent abilities given to specific people by the Spirit through the Apostles' hands. Despite the cessation of the gifts, God has always worked among His people in supernatural ways. He still heals and does all kinds of supernatural things. However, in the absence of the New Testament gifts, modern interventions by God are typically responses to prayers of faith rather than acts done by "gifted" persons." www.pfrs.org
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 28 Aug, 2009 02:46 PM
Hi Linnie,
How have you been? Yes it is good to see we totally agree in something. ;-) but you know someday we will all agree 100% in all things. I am so looking forward to everyone being on the same page as me. LOLOLOL :ROFL:
