The following verses seem to say ‘yes and no’ to that question!
So is there a contradiction??
Actually, there’s no contradiction. The Bible has plenty to say about good and bad arguments. But the Proverb verses quoted below point out there is a kind of argument to avoid and a kind of argument to use when answering fools
Proverbs 26:4-14
4 Don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools, or you will become as foolish as they are. 5 Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools, or they will become wise in their own estimation
I’ll explain more by providing an example of bad or foolish argumentation followed by a good example.
Over the years I’ve had several friends weighing in on the topic of argument. Perhaps the form their argument takes looks like this: “All arguing in a waste of time and is useless.”
Does anyone see the problem in my friend’s argument???
Well, this “argument” argues against itself!! It is therefore a self-defeating argument against argument!!!
In other words, the arguer, who claims all arguments are useless, has apparently found argument useful!! Because, the minute he proceeds to argue against arguing he inadvertently undercuts the validity of his own argument!!
The moral of the story—define your terms before you state your case!
For example, if you claim the Bible says not to argue then make your case by appealing to those specific scriptures that define and explain your point. Then, to balance your claim, you might want to cite Bible verses for the proper application of valid or useful argument.
If this approach is applied correctly, your argument will be consistent within itself and be free of term contradiction.
Not only need to watch my bad composition but gota watch that spell checker too. If l misspell a word the spell checker inserts the correct spelling of some other word I didn’t want!!
You are right Littlest David. Since Jesus had replaced the OT antiquated laws with a brand new **NEW TESTAMENT LAWS** He really wasn't breaking the antiquated OT laws since Jesus was obeying His brand new **NEW TESTAMENT LAWS**!!
It is interesting to note that LittlestDavid does not answer the many Scriptures which contradict his ridiculous beliefs about antiquated Old Testament Laws!!
Exodus 31:14-16: Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do **ANY WORK** on that day must be **CUT OFF** from their people... Whoever does **ANY WORK** on the Sabbath day is to be **PUT TO DEATH**!"! {That would also include any **GOOD WORK** like healing those with permanent infirmities which could be cured in the 6 days before or after a Sabbath Day}
Exodus 20:8-19: "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you will labor and **ALL YOUR WORK**, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord. On it you shall do **NO WORK**! {Which would include any **GODD WORK**}
Exodus 35:2,3; Whoever does **ANY WORK** on the Sabbath must be **PUT TO DEATH** Do not **LIGHT A FIRE** in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.
This was possible in Israel not to **LIGHT A FIRE** since it is about the same latitude of warm South Carolina. But anyone in the frigid parts of the earth must freeze to death in the winter since electricity would not be invented until over 3,000 years after this commandment was given!!
Jesus **IMMEDIATELY ELIMINATED AND BROKE** 26 death penalties in the Old Testament when He commanded in John 8:7: "Let any one of you who is **WITHOUT SIN** be the first to throw a stone at her!" {Who committed adultery} {Which is impossible since every human has committed sin}
John 5:16-18: So because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute Him. In his defense Jesus said to them. "My Father is always at His work to this very day, and ******I TOO AM **WORKING**!*****" For this reason they tried all the more to kill Him; not only was **HE BREAKING THE SABBATH**, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Hebrews 7:18,19: The former regulation is SET ASIDE because it was **WEAK AND USELESS**; for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.!
Matthew 26:30-34: They seized Jesus and arrested Him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "For *ALL* who draw the sword will die by the sword...But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
Former OT commands in Exodus 21:23-25 "If there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
This was immediately changed and **BROKEN BY JESUS* by these NT commands by Jesus:
Matthew 5:38,39: Jesus commands, "You have heard that it was said {In Exodus 21:23-25 above}, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek turn to him the other also!"
Matthew 5:33-37: Jesus says, "You have heard that it was said to your people long ago {Numbers 30:2 above}, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' BUT I tell you, Do not swear at all....Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No, 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one!!" {THIS COMMAND BY JESUS COMPLETELY ELIMINATED AN OATH OR VOW BY ANY BORN FROM ABOVEE CHRISTIAN!!
Mark 7:18,19: Jesus says, "Are you so dull?" He asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." In saying this. Jesus declared ALL FOODS "CLEAN! For what comes out of a man is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come--sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. Al these evils come from inside and make a person **UNCLEAN**!"
THIS COMMAND BY JESUS **IMMEDIATELY** ELIMINATED THE MANY UNCLEN FOODS FORBIDDEN BY OLD TESTAMENT LAWS IN LEVITICUS 11:1-47
And so Jesus and His disciples could immediately eat all the foods that were a sin to eat according to OT antiquated laws in Leviticus 11:1-47 that were immediately changed by the commands of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ!!
I Corinthians 9:21: I am under **CHRIST'S LAW**!!
*WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE OLD TESTAMENT LAWS!!
Galatians 2:14-16,20,21; Paul said, When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.!"
Galatians 2:20,21: The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 3:10-13: "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!"
Hebrews 7:18,19: The former regulation is SET ASIDE because it was **WEAK AND USELESS**; for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.!
Hebrews 8:8,9,13: "The time is coming." says the Lord, "when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".... By calling this Covenant "NEW", He has made the first one OBSOLETE; and what is OBSOLETE and aging will soon disappear."
Hebrews 8:6: But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is Mediator is SUPERIOR TO THE OLD ONE, and it is founded on better promises.
Colossians 2:16,17: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you **EAT** or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a **SABBATH** day. These are a *SHADOW* of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ!!!
As an individual, I've been in battles all my life. Was a soldier in the U.S. Army,, then went to Bible college and it was always debating over science, politics and religion. When I got out, I was working out in the community with clients who had severe mental disorders and always dealing with battles trying to help them. In the past 2 years of my live I've come to a place where I believe God would have me rest from the battles and I think it's good to just have peace with people. No locking horns. Just giving people my best, hopefully, and trying to be a light to others. I think when you've seen enough conflict in life, you learn that there are ways around it that don't require much conflict at all. The times I have been in arguments, a lot of times I came out feeling bad even if I wasn't necessarily wrong. There was something more important at stake, that being a relationship with someone. It's more important to me now to surround myself with friends and family than to pursue "arguments" and potentially alienate people. I'll get into discussions sometimes, and I can hit that thin line between a discussion and an argument, but I really try not to pass it.
TOTH, thank you for sharing your experiences. I think our experiences may influence us differently.
The pursuit of peace is biblical objective so long as it is the kind of peace that Jesus taught.
I’ve been involved in several “battles” too. Intensive battles eventually get wearisome.
I was kinda naive when I started junior college and probably about as naive when I started Bible school and university undergrad studies. It was in that state of innocence and at that time junior and university education seriously challenged my faith. It seemed professors took great glee “disapproving” the Bible supposedly using the “findings of science”. To me it was heart rending!! I got so distressed I wondered about tossing my faith all together.
I needed help from the church but the person I had the most respect for said I needed to respect other people’s beliefs even if those beliefs, in my view, contradicted scripture. Specifically, he claimed the 6 day creation was open to various interpretations.
I was a mess. I was torn because my faith was being shredded to pieces at college AND at church!! I thought if science really “disproved” the 6 day creation then the Bible cannot be trusted. If the Bible isn’t true and can’t be trusted then forget about faith. It was psychological turmoil at its worst!!
But out of the darkness and fog came the Institute for Creation Research (ICR). This organization included scientists and theologians who took the Bible seriously and literally! Even more impressive was their actions on college campuses. They debated secular humanist professors and won debates using the finding of science!!
Remember the secular professors had used false science to basically ruin my faith and stomp my confidence in the Bible to the ground. Fortunately, Creation scientists had seriously rocked the humanist education establishments boat in the 70’s and 80’s when I was in class trying to keep my fledgling faith alive. But once the humanists were put on notice, they responded by doubling down against the biblical 6 day creation.
I consider those men and women who defended the truth of the Bible as nothing short of heroic!! They obediently fought the battle for the Bible at a time when I was vulnerable to falling victim to false teachings.
But secular humanist who slither around high school and college campus weren’t the only ones challenging the trustworthiness of scripture—some churches and some seminaries were doing the exact same thing!! To me, that was more spiritually troublesome.
To make the rest of my story short, thw dreaded experiences with spiritual and psychological battles might explain my low tolerance for false teachings, false science and for “Christian” compromisers.
All the way from Genesis to Revelations, false teaching has always been a serious annoyance to God and his prophets. And I won’t apologize for coming out hot against it either
I see these two young men (young to me that is) on a regular basis trying to make the other understand the correct meaning of the Bible.
God knew that many people would not listen to the Gospel; therefore He did not want the Apostles to waste their time. Both prophetic and David are wasting your time. Neither of you will change a single opinion of the other.
What were the disciples to do when the townspeople would not listen to them???
Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. ----- I do not need to explain what he meant. Both of you know.
I do not know Toth's religion or thoughts. But its obvious that he is saying your arguments do no good. Calming down sometimes brings conversation instead of arguments. I personally believe these threads are harming new Christians as you are both so angry and set in your beliefs that no amount of talking will change the other person's point of view.
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
James 1:19-20
Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
2 Timothy 2:14
Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.
You are right Littlest David. Since Jesus had replaced the OT antiquated laws with a brand new **NEW TESTAMENT LAWS** He really wasn't breaking the antiquated OT laws since Jesus was obeying His brand new **NEW TESTAMENT LAWS**!!
It is interesting to note that LittlestDavid does not answer the many Scriptures which contradict his ridiculous beliefs about antiquated Old Testament Laws!!
Exodus 31:14-16: Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do **ANY WORK** on that day must be **CUT OFF** from their people... Whoever does **ANY WORK** on the Sabbath day is to be **PUT TO DEATH**!"! {That would also include any **GOOD WORK** like healing those with permanent infirmities which could be cured in the 6 days before or after a Sabbath Day}
Exodus 20:8-19: "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you will labor and **ALL YOUR WORK**, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord. On it you shall do **NO WORK**! {Which would include any **GODD WORK**}
Exodus 35:2,3; Whoever does **ANY WORK** on the Sabbath must be **PUT TO DEATH** Do not **LIGHT A FIRE** in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.
This was possible in Israel not to **LIGHT A FIRE** since it is about the same latitude of warm South Carolina. But anyone in the frigid parts of the earth must freeze to death in the winter since electricity would not be invented until over 3,000 years after this commandment was given!!
Jesus **IMMEDIATELY ELIMINATED AND BROKE** 26 death penalties in the Old Testament when He commanded in John 8:7: "Let any one of you who is **WITHOUT SIN** be the first to throw a stone at her!" {Who committed adultery} {Which is impossible since every human has committed sin}
John 5:16-18: So because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute Him. In his defense Jesus said to them. "My Father is always at His work to this very day, and ******I TOO AM **WORKING**!*****" For this reason they tried all the more to kill Him; not only was **HE BREAKING THE SABBATH**, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Hebrews 7:18,19: The former regulation is SET ASIDE because it was **WEAK AND USELESS**; for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.!
Matthew 26:30-34: They seized Jesus and arrested Him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "For *ALL* who draw the sword will die by the sword...But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
Former OT commands in Exodus 21:23-25 "If there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
This was immediately changed and **BROKEN BY JESUS* by these NT commands by Jesus:
Matthew 5:38,39: Jesus commands, "You have heard that it was said {In Exodus 21:23-25 above}, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek turn to him the other also!"
Matthew 5:33-37: Jesus says, "You have heard that it was said to your people long ago {Numbers 30:2 above}, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' BUT I tell you, Do not swear at all....Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No, 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one!!" {THIS COMMAND BY JESUS COMPLETELY ELIMINATED AN OATH OR VOW BY ANY BORN FROM ABOVEE CHRISTIAN!!
Mark 7:18,19: Jesus says, "Are you so dull?" He asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." In saying this. Jesus declared ALL FOODS "CLEAN! For what comes out of a man is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come--sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. Al these evils come from inside and make a person **UNCLEAN**!"
THIS COMMAND BY JESUS **IMMEDIATELY** ELIMINATED THE MANY UNCLEN FOODS FORBIDDEN BY OLD TESTAMENT LAWS IN LEVITICUS 11:1-47
And so Jesus and His disciples could immediately eat all the foods that were a sin to eat according to OT antiquated laws in Leviticus 11:1-47 that were immediately changed by the commands of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ!!
I Corinthians 9:21: I am under **CHRIST'S LAW**!!
*WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE OLD TESTAMENT LAWS!!
Galatians 2:14-16,20,21; Paul said, When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.!"
Galatians 2:20,21: The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 3:10-13: "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!"
Hebrews 7:18,19: The former regulation is SET ASIDE because it was **WEAK AND USELESS**; for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.!
Hebrews 8:8,9,13: "The time is coming." says the Lord, "when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".... By calling this Covenant "NEW", He has made the first one OBSOLETE; and what is OBSOLETE and aging will soon disappear."
Hebrews 8:6: But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is Mediator is SUPERIOR TO THE OLD ONE, and it is founded on better promises.
Colossians 2:16,17: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you **EAT** or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a **SABBATH** day. These are a *SHADOW* of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ!!!
I certainly understand where you are coming from. I'm familiar with ICR. I think sometimes they are spot on, but other times they can do a disservice when they run with ideas and start saying, "This is it", when it may not have been. The Bible is a basis for knowledge and wisdom, but it doesn't tell us everything, which is fine. It doesn't need to. It reveals God, and who He is, and shares about His love and desire for a relationship with us. To me, that is always "enough." I don't have to know how old the earth or universe is. There are indications, but the Bible doesn't really say. However, when you see numbers pushed out there, then we end up doing the same thing we may be trying to oppose, by trying to substantiate something we can't substantiate. That's why I like to lean on what the Bible does actually tell us. Sure, I can discuss and suppose how things might've played out, but first and foremost, I want people to know that no matter what, Jesus loves them.
I'm sure you've had your share of battles. I think it's true for most of us. I just have grown weary from them over the years, and I don't like who I become sometimes when I have to put that face on. I like everybody, and my hope is that we can all share in God's love and focus on what is common to all of us. We believers are all brothers and sisters in Christ. That makes you my brother, and that means you're part of my family. God bless you brother.
I just believe we can overly focus on what separates us from someone one rather that focus what we have in common. We are all individuals who need Christ, and we all have basic needs like food, shelter, clothing, and rest. Our struggles are often the same, and we are stronger together.
