I have a red flag feeling when I see the word "trinity".
I find it can be traced back to Tertullian's vain philosophies and deceit that Paul warns about. Who knows where Tertullian got it but the trinity is not a new doctrine , it can be seen in Babylon with Baal, Ishtar and Tammuz. Christian theology was largely organized and nurtured in the schools of Alexandria, and Alexandria was not only the meeting place of East and West, it was also the place where the decrepit theology of Egypt was revivified by contact with the speculative philosophy of Greece. The library at Alexandria burned and the first person blamed for the destruction is none other than Julius Caesar himself. In 48 BC, Caesar was pursuing Pompey into Egypt when he was suddenly cut off by an Egyptian fleet at Alexandria.
This however is what I do believe about the Godhead..
Genesis 1 God created....
Exodus 3:4 I AM
Isaiah 43 :1-2, 10-15 Redeemer, no Savior beside me.
Isaiah 46:9-11 No other God , end from beginning
Isaiah 49:16 I have inscribed you on my palms.
John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word and the Word....
John 8:58 Before Abraham was , I AM.
John 14:9-11 He that has seen me has seen the Father.
John 1:18 in the bosom of the Father
Colossians 2:9 ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily
1 Corinthians 8:6 For us there is ONE God, the FATHER.
"Trouble is, Chuckk’s false argument fails because the Biblical Trinity is not comparable to pagan triads. Hence, the usual fallacious application of “pagan triads” in comparison to the biblical revelation concerning the historical doctrine of the trinity."
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>Pardon the use of the word "Triad". I agree it is different than the doctrine of the "Trinity". However, that said, the Trinty is NOT EXPLICITLY taught in Scripture, but must be systematically derived. This is also incontestable.
As to whatever "system" you think I use for Scripture: You are sadly mistaken before you even start, Ygat is not how Jewish people read Scripture. In other words: Scripture doesn't have to always agree have to agree with itself. Granted some perceived conflicts can be explained with the application of context or dispensation. However for a Jew, it is not mandatory that Scripture agree. We accept this mystery and don't get hung up on it, as those with western mindsets do.
(I perceive this concept is so foreign to you, that you declare it heresy or satanic while failing to realize Scripture was written by Jews)<
All born from above saints believe that God's Word clearly teaches that Jesus is God which Chuckles denies.
Not all Christians believe that the holy spirit is God since the holy spirit is never called Lord or God and is never worshiped; and in our eternal home in the New Jerusalem there will only be **TWO THRONES FOR JESUS AND THE FATHER** as per Revelation 22:3: "The throne of God and the **LAMB** will be in the City!" {In our Eternal Home the New Jerusalem!!}
Revelation 3:21: To those who are victorious, I will give the right to sit with Me on My throne , just as I was victorious and sat down with My Father on His throne!"
Isaiah 9:6--7: For unto us a **CHILD** is born, to us a **SON** is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor ,**MIGHTY GOD**! and **PRINCE OF PEACE**. Of the greatness of His government **THERE WILL BE NO END**. He will reign on David's throne and over His Kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness **FROM THAT TIME ON AND ****FOREVER****.
John 1:1-3,18: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Go, and the **WORD WAS GOD**. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that as been made...No one has ever seen God, but the One and only Son, who is **HIMSELF GOD** and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known!
John 20:27-29: Jesus said to the doubting Thomas, "Put your finger here in My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe!" Thomas said to Him, My Lord and **MY GOD**!" Then Jesus told
him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed!" {And so since Chuckles does not believe he is not blessed by Jesus!!}
Hebrews 1:6,8: When God brings His firstborn into the world He says, "Let all God's angels **WORSHIP HIM**.... About the Son He says, "Your throne, **O GOD**, will last for ever and ever, a scepter of justice will be the scepter of **YOUR KINGDOM**!"
Titus 2:13,14: We wait for the **BLESSED HOPE**--the glorious appearing of our **GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR**, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify a people that are **HIS VERY OWN**, eager to do what is good!!
John 16:12-14: Jesus says, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he the spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears. and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify Me because it is **FROM ME**that he will receive **WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU**!"
Hebrews 12:2: So we fix our eyes on Jesus, the **AUTHOR** and **PERFECTER** of our faith!!
And so Jesus told the holy spirit what to inspire the 8 writers of the New Testament exactly what to write which would include the 4 passages in John which confirms that Jesus is God!!
John 12:48: Jesus says, "There is a Judge for the one who does accept My words, that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the Last Day!" {With eternal torment in hell}
So Satan's followers all deceptively say Jesus is lord but will never admit that Jesus is God like Chuckles.
Chuckk, come now. The fallacy of equivocation is a very useful tool when you’re unable to post a sound argument.
You say the “trinity” is not “explicitly” taught in scripture. Very well, monotheism, along with other doctrines you hold, is not taught “explicitly” taught in scripture either, so I guess you won’t teach that or them anymore either!
Or wait a minute, it’s only your opponent who can’t teach things not “explicitly” taught but just like the Pharisees who opposed Jesus, you are exempt from the rules you put on others.
I’ve explained your “explicit” false argument before but I’m used to you ignoring contrary facts.
Hopefully the “explicit” monotheistic false argument example above will serve as a reminder before you ignore that too.
BTW, your subtle application of the “explicit” denial fallacy exposes the fact you know the Doctrine Trinity is clearly taught “implicitly”, as it were, in scripture minus the term trinity.
"Elohim is used in Genesis 1:1 for God as the Creator."
>Sigh, since you won't look up academic peer reviewed material, I will have to post it for you:
"There is a simple way to resolve the problem of an inspired Old Testament that affirms that there are many real elohim (good or evil) in addition to Yahweh. Though simple, the solution requires us to think like a Semite, like an Israelite, and not as the product of the Reformation or modern evangelicalism. Biblical theology does not begin with us, Calvin, Luther, Aquinas, or Augustine. It begins with the text as it stands, understood within the historical, cultural, and religious context that produced it."................
"I will address how an Israelite would have understood the term elohim, thereby providing a corrective to our own mistaken understanding.".................."
Many Christians who object to the plain meaning of the Hebrew text of Psalm 82 assert that this psalm is actually describing God the Father speaking to the other members of the Trinity. This view results in heresy........
"Since elohim is so often translated as “God,” we look at the Hebrew word the same way we look at capitalized G-o-d. When we see the word “God,” we instinctively think of a divine being with a unique set of attributes—omnipresence, omnipotence, sovereignty, and so on. But this is not how a biblical writer thought about the term. Biblical authors did not assign a specific set of attributes to the word elohim. That is evident when we observe how they used the word.
The biblical writers refer to a half-dozen different entities with the word elohim. By any religious accounting, the attributes of those entities are not equal.
Yahweh, the God of Israel (thousands of times—e.g., Gen. 2:4–5; Deut. 4:35)
The members of Yahweh’s council (Psa. 82:1, 6)
Gods and goddesses of other nations (Judg. 11:24; 1 Kgs. 11:33)
Demons (Hebrew: shedim—Deut. 32:17)
The deceased Samuel (1 Sam. 28:13)
Angels or the Angel of Yahweh (Gen. 35:7)"..........
"The biblical use of elohim is not hard to understand once we know that it isn’t about attributes. What all the figures on the list have in common is that they are inhabitants of the spiritual world. In that realm there is hierarchy.
For example, Yahweh possesses superior attributes with respect to all elohim. But God’s attributes aren’t what makes him an elohim, since inferior beings are members of that same group. The Old Testament writers understood that Yahweh was an elohim—but no other elohim was Yahweh. He was species-unique among all residents of the spiritual world.
This is not to say that an elohim could not interact with the human world. The Bible makes it clear that divine beings can (and did) assume physical human form, and even corporeal flesh, for interaction with people, but that is not their normal estate. Spiritual beings are “spirits” (1 Kgs. 22:19–22; John 4:24; Heb. 1:14; Rev. 1:4). In like manner, humans can be transported to the divine realm (e.g., Isa. 6), but that is not our normal plane of existence. As I explained earlier, the word elohim is a “place of residence” term. It has nothing to do with a specific set of attributes."
By Dr Michael Heiser, the one I asked you to look up.
Why do you insist on debating when I'm providing you a opportunity to get educated?<
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"No defined unity?
John 10:30 I and my Father are one."
>Words mean things! John 10:30 doesn't DEFINE how they are one.<
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"As far as the rest of your statement, attributing something to "systematic theology" isn't a valid argument, as the statements rest on the authority of scripture."
>The reason you don't think it is a valid argument is you are so immersed in a western Gentile systematic view of Scripture that you cannot see there is a whole other world out there - the one the Biblical writers lived in.<
All born from above saints believe that God's Word clearly teaches that Jesus is God which Chuckles denies.
Not all Christians believe that the holy spirit is God since the holy spirit is never called Lord or God and is never worshiped; and in our eternal home in the New Jerusalem there will only be **TWO THRONES FOR JESUS AND THE FATHER** as per Revelation 22:3: "The throne of God and the **LAMB** will be in the City!" {In our Eternal Home the New Jerusalem!!}
Revelation 3:21: To those who are victorious, I will give the right to sit with Me on My throne , just as I was victorious and sat down with My Father on His throne!"
Isaiah 9:6--7: For unto us a **CHILD** is born, to us a **SON** is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor ,**MIGHTY GOD**! and **PRINCE OF PEACE**. Of the greatness of His government **THERE WILL BE NO END**. He will reign on David's throne and over His Kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness **FROM THAT TIME ON AND ****FOREVER****.
John 1:1-3,18: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Go, and the **WORD WAS GOD**. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that as been made...No one has ever seen God, but the One and only Son, who is **HIMSELF GOD** and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known!
John 20:27-29: Jesus said to the doubting Thomas, "Put your finger here in My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe!" Thomas said to Him, My Lord and **MY GOD**!" Then Jesus told
him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed!" {And so since Chuckles does not believe he is not blessed by Jesus!!}
Hebrews 1:6,8: When God brings His firstborn into the world He says, "Let all God's angels **WORSHIP HIM**.... About the Son He says, "Your throne, **O GOD**, will last for ever and ever, a scepter of justice will be the scepter of **YOUR KINGDOM**!"
Titus 2:13,14: We wait for the **BLESSED HOPE**--the glorious appearing of our **GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR**, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify a people that are **HIS VERY OWN**, eager to do what is good!!
John 16:12-14: Jesus says, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he the spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears. and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify Me because it is **FROM ME**that he will receive **WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU**!"
Hebrews 12:2: So we fix our eyes on Jesus, the **AUTHOR** and **PERFECTER** of our faith!!
And so Jesus told the holy spirit what to inspire the 8 writers of the New Testament exactly what to write which would include the 4 passages in John which confirms that Jesus is God!!
John 12:48: Jesus says, "There is a Judge for the one who does accept My words, that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the Last Day!" {With eternal torment in hell}
So Satan's followers all deceptively say Jesus is lord but will never admit that Jesus is God like Chuckles.
**JESUS CHRIST** is also called **THE LAMB OF GOD** **THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE** **THE GOOD SHEPHERD** **JUDGE** **LORD OF LORDS** **HEAD OF THE CHURCH** **MASTER** **FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS** **THE ROCK** **HIGH PRIEST** **THE DOOR** **LIVING WATER** **BREAD OF LIFE** **ROSE OF SHARON** **ALPHA AND OMEGA** **THE BEGINNING AND THE END** THE TRUE VINE** **TEACHER** **PROPHET** **ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD** **HOLY ONE** **ONLY MEDIATOR** **LIGHT OF THE WORLD** **IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD** **THE WORD** **CHIEF CORNERSTONE** **SAVIOR** **AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH** **THE ALMIGHTY** **KING OF KINGS** **PRINCE OF PEACE** **SON OF MAN** **REDEEMER** **BRIGHT MORNING STAR** **THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE**!!
This is from Michael S. Heiser that you stated you were citing from and suggested I read.
He is the Executive Director at the Celebration Church in Jacksonville, FL. This is the belief statement they adhere to.
"God is the Creator and Ruler of the universe. God is eternally existent in three personalities; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and are all co-equal. God has Perichoretic nature, which means the members of Godhead mutually indwell and contain one another. God is omnipotent (all powerful), omnipresent (present everywhere) omniscient (all knowing). God is wisdom and knowledge. God is Love. Jesus taught His disciples topray and refer to God as “Our Father...” The apostle Paul stated our spirit cries out to God “Abba Father.” Abba is ancient Aramaic for ‘dadda’. Jesus always pointed to the Father. Jesus said the words and works that I do and speak are from the Father. God’s nature is Holy. The Triune nature of God models a perfect expression of love meaning that they each point to and exalt the other. Jesus directs attention to the Father, The Father directs attention to the Son, the Son directs attention to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit exalts Jesus. "
I know he is a Trinitarian. I suspect for good reason, he would be out of a job if he wasn't! Whether that is true or not idk. But I'll tell you how you and I differ: I don't judge others based on their acceptance or denial of Trinitarian doctrine.
Btw the picken way, NO WHERE in my posts have I denied the possibility of the Trinitarian doctrine. It is just not my first choice.
It appears it is you who feels all must believe in the doctrine of the Trinity at threat of hell. Granted you haven't explicitly said it, but it sure comes across that way.
All born from above saints believe that God's Word clearly teaches that Jesus is God which Chuckles denies.
Not all Christians believe that the holy spirit is God since the holy spirit is never called Lord or God and is never worshiped; and in our eternal home in the New Jerusalem there will only be **TWO THRONES FOR JESUS AND THE FATHER** as per Revelation 22:3: "The throne of God and the **LAMB** will be in the City!" {In our Eternal Home the New Jerusalem!!}
Revelation 3:21: To those who are victorious, I will give the right to sit with Me on My throne , just as I was victorious and sat down with My Father on His throne!"
Isaiah 9:6--7: For unto us a **CHILD** is born, to us a **SON** is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor ,**MIGHTY GOD**! and **PRINCE OF PEACE**. Of the greatness of His government **THERE WILL BE NO END**. He will reign on David's throne and over His Kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness **FROM THAT TIME ON AND ****FOREVER****.
John 1:1-3,18: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Go, and the **WORD WAS GOD**. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that as been made...No one has ever seen God, but the One and only Son, who is **HIMSELF GOD** and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known!
John 20:27-29: Jesus said to the doubting Thomas, "Put your finger here in My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe!" Thomas said to Him, My Lord and **MY GOD**!" Then Jesus told
him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed!" {And so since Chuckles does not believe he is not blessed by Jesus!!}
Hebrews 1:6,8: When God brings His firstborn into the world He says, "Let all God's angels **WORSHIP HIM**.... About the Son He says, "Your throne, **O GOD**, will last for ever and ever, a scepter of justice will be the scepter of **YOUR KINGDOM**!"
Titus 2:13,14: We wait for the **BLESSED HOPE**--the glorious appearing of our **GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR**, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify a people that are **HIS VERY OWN**, eager to do what is good!!
John 16:12-14: Jesus says, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he the spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears. and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify Me because it is **FROM ME**that he will receive **WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU**!"
Hebrews 12:2: So we fix our eyes on Jesus, the **AUTHOR** and **PERFECTER** of our faith!!
And so Jesus told the holy spirit what to inspire the 8 writers of the New Testament exactly what to write which would include the 4 passages in John which confirms that Jesus is God!!
John 12:48: Jesus says, "There is a Judge for the one who does accept My words, that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the Last Day!" {With eternal torment in hell}
So Satan's followers all deceptively say Jesus is lord but will never admit that Jesus is God like Chuckles.
**JESUS CHRIST** is also called **THE LAMB OF GOD** **THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE** **THE GOOD SHEPHERD** **JUDGE** **LORD OF LORDS** **HEAD OF THE CHURCH** **MASTER** **FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS** **THE ROCK** **HIGH PRIEST** **THE DOOR** **LIVING WATER** **BREAD OF LIFE** **ROSE OF SHARON** **ALPHA AND OMEGA** **THE BEGINNING AND THE END** THE TRUE VINE** **TEACHER** **PROPHET** **ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD** **HOLY ONE** **ONLY MEDIATOR** **LIGHT OF THE WORLD** **IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD** **THE WORD** **CHIEF CORNERSTONE** **SAVIOR** **AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH** **THE ALMIGHTY** **KING OF KINGS** **PRINCE OF PEACE** **SON OF MAN** **REDEEMER** **BRIGHT MORNING STAR** **THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE**!!
