It has been my experience that the answer is no. We all know and understand that HaShem is order, and that all things that truly show His Light and Love are as well. I ask that if you can't follow the simple request placed before you, please don't post on this thread.
Any debate on the Laws of HaShem, goes off the deep end, with passage after passage being posted. In just one post we may find as many as 15 if not more. This is an unproductive way to handle this, or any topic. As it can leave any one wishing to reply, with little option, Leave a post that is pages long, or leave a vague post filled with even more passages and little substance. This is what leads to endless debate with no answers, as well talking in circles.
For this reason, it is always best to look at ONLY ONE PASSAGE at a time. Now once that passage is called up, Both sides must look at it from both sides. i.e. Be ready and willing to argue the points you don't follow.
If the only thing we do is push one side of a topic, we fail to really look at the other side, and in most cases, fail to even hear the other side. So here is my propose, it is open to every one that truly wishes to open their hearts and minds to TRUTH. Not my truth, not your truth, and not your churches truth. Rather BIBLICAL TRUTH.
As almost all study of OT vs NT is centered around the Law of HaShem, (Know here after as TORAH) the first thing that must be found is, "How valid is Torah today?" Not an easy answer for many.
So here we go.
When it comes to Torah, the one passage that comes up more than other is Mat. 5:17. So lets look closely at this passage.
(NLT) Mat 5:17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
(KJ same passage) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
One must always take note of the passage opening. Here we are told not to think that something is Yeshua's reason for coming. From that we are safe to say that anything that follows, (until a change of topic) is what we shouldn't see as coming topass. After all He just THINK NOT, or in my words, (Don't put words in my mouth, or forget the important words I use.)
So let's do a full brake down of this passage. Looking at from both sides.
First we have THINK NOT, or Don't misunderstand. Both give the same thought behind the words. Just tell us not to entertain the idea that Yeshua came to do any of the following. So what is it he didn't come to do?
(KJ ) I am come to destroy the laws or the prophets:
(NLT) I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets.
If we read this passage for what it tells us, rather than what we wish it to say, we find that the Torah, and the Prophets are placed together. From this one should conclude that they work together, and we can not remove one from this passage with any hope of keeping the whole context of the passage.
Also, if we remove any part of this, then apply the new contextual meaning to the full passage, as well as any that may follow, do we not teach a lie, based on what we hope is true? SO any teaching on this passage must hold true to both Torah and prophets. With this understanding, one must walk carefully. If we say Yeshua removed the Law, nailed it to the cross, and so on, We also say that He has removed the prophecies that have not been fulfilled. Like His second coming, Judgment of all man kind, and many others.
(KJ) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(NLT) No, I came to accomplish their purpose
Now the most common word to be pushed by them that stand in opposition to Torah is the word FULFILL. So lets take a look at that word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill Has this to say.
a : to put into effect : execute He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) Their order for more TVs was promptly fulfilled.
c : to measure up to : satisfy She hasn't yet fulfilled the requirements needed to graduate.
d : to bring to an end she came to install herself and fulfill her time at the house— Willa Cather
2a : to develop the full potentialities of He has a lot of talent, but he hasn't really fulfilled his potential.
b : to convert into reality a sense of the failure of life to fulfill its ultimate expectations— Leslie Rees
3 archaic : to make full : fill her subtle, warm, and golden breath … fulfills him with beatitude— Alfred Tennyson
Now in this we find both sides, we find that it can mean to being to an end, yet we must ask, has it all been brought to an end? Are we wrong to say Yeshua will be coming back? After all He has brought to an end the Prophets, then that would also mean all prophecy has been fulfilled, or removed as they no longer hold meaning. i.e. there is no need for them.
Yet if we now look at this from a more contextual view, we know He must return for the WORD to hold truth. After all if any part of what the WORD tells us is not true, then we place our salvation in the hands of sin. Just saying.
We also know from the fact that Yeshua must come again, we must understand that He is still working to FULFILL scripture.
On the flip side.
At best I can here, so I leave something our please let me know.
This passage is clear that Jesus FULFILLED the Law, nailed it the cross, and removed it. He know that man kind can not live up to it's standards, and that to be held to that standard would leave us all devoid of hope. The passage is clear in that it tells us Jesus removed law. As is clear in your own use of Webster.
Jesus fulfilled the law in the sense that He gave it the full meaning. He emphasized it's deep understanding principles and total commitment to it rather than mere external acknowledgement and obedience.
Matthew 5:17,18: Jesus says, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to **FULFILL THEM**! I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the Law **UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED**!"
Acts 3:18-20: This is how **GOD FULFILLED** what He had foretold through the prophets, saying that the Christ would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that He may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus!! He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as He promised long ago through His holy prophets!!
Ephesians 3:8-11: Although I am less than the least of all of God's people, this faith was given to me to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches in Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom 0f God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to His **ETERNAL PURPOSE** which He **ACCOMPLISHED**in Christ Jesus our Lord. In Him and **THROUGH FAITH IN HIM** we may approach God with freedom and confidence**
The following Scripture proves that Jesus completely **FULFILLED** the OT prophesies and **ACCOMPLISHED SALVATION** so that we are no longer in need of the OT Law!!
Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus says, "**ALL AUTHORITY** in heaven and on earth has been given to **ME**. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to **OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU**. And surely I am with you always!!"
I Corinthians 9:21: I am under **CHRIST'S LAW**!!
Galatians 6:2: Fulfill the **LAW OF CHRIST**!!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the {**OT**} law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE {**OT**} LAW!!"
*WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!
Galatians 2:14-16,20,21; 3:2,5,10-13;23-25: Paul said, When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH AND NOT BY OBSERVING THE LAW, because by observing the law no one will be justified.!"
Galatians 2:20,21: The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 3:10-13: "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." **CHRIST REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW** by becoming a curse for us!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!"
Hebrews 7:18,19: The former regulation is SET ASIDE because it was weak and useless; for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.!
Hebrews 8:8,9,13: "The time is coming." says the Lord, "when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".... By calling this Covenant "NEW", He has made the first one OBSOLETE; and what is OBSOLETE and aging will soon disappear."
Hebrews 8:6: But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is Mediator is SUPERIOR TO THE OLD ONE, and it is founded on better promises.
Colossians 2:16,17: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you **EAT** or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a *SHADOW* of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ!!!
I know everyone would like to move past this one passage, I know I would. however, This one passage is a lot like the corner stone of any debate on Biblical law. I do agree with you say to a point. Here if we look at the meaning for the 2 words that seem to the center of both sides argument, what do we find? Do we take from this the idea that the Law has been removed, even after Yeshua said that was not his reason for being?
What we see with the interaction of Yeshua and leaders of religious law, is that Yeshua seems to always be pointing them back to spiritual life Torah leads us to.
First of all Rainrider, welcome to the forum! I hope we are both welcome here? You are a breath of fresh air to me so far and not many would put the effort in this HUGE study that you have done, so far. Perhaps your method of "communication" can keep this thread on topic but I warn you when you stated "Once the folks that can't follow the simple request made are done, This study will follow through." I'm sorry to have to inform you but Richard (prophetic7744) will never be done, that is posting mile long posts and many times off topic! Could this be the first time a thread "follows through" to discover the truth? I'm trying to have faith in that Rainrider but as you can see right above your post, there is a rule breaker of your awesome thread. So disrespectful to you as well as others!
OK, on to the study and "verse 17" in question.
First things first, I think its an injustice to the Bible context on the subject of the word "fulfill" to only study verse 17 of Matt. chapter 5. We must remember, Hebrew had no punctuation or numbering. So lets read Matt 5:17-18 together. This is KJV below.
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily, I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
See how much more complete that is? It gives us more of a description of the word "fulfil" and "fulfilled" and more so the obvious answer that the Torah Law has NOT been done away with on the pole/tree because heaven and earth have NOT passed away! But don't believe me, go outside and look for yourself. Ha! So of course this begs the question of WHAT was fulfilled? I had a custard "filled" long john that was fully "filled" with custard or "fulfilled" in that sense but I ate it, so it passed away, was destroyed, yet it was fullfilling to eat! Lol. Do you get my point? We can look at Scripture like this but is that the correct way to look at the context of the complete message above?
What do ya think, is it alright to include "verse 18" in the mix?
You asked, "What is a "jot or title"?" There are different lines of thought on this. Though the one fits best is this.
The Yud is the smallest letter in the Hebrew Alphabet, if seen on it's own one may mistake it for a jot. There are letters in Hebrew text that are distinguished by only a small stroke. If the Yud was remove from Torah, HaShem would be who he is. It is from this reason that Yeshua said not one jot, or tittle would be removed. Though they are not Hebrew letters, they do point to them.
[QUOTE ] Ummm. Parrot..What if Yeshushua already turned the kingdom over to His Father because ALL his enemies were under his feet?
1 Corinthians 15:24 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
"""Question: Did he do that? Is satan's power over the grave null and void. ?"""
Satan never had power over life and death. If in fact he had, can you give me the address, (address is short for Book Chapter and Verse.)
""""" Don't we have eternal life if we are believers and doers of His Word?""""""
When one TRULY gives them self over to HaShem, in faith, and show their love for Him yes life is theirs.
"""""""Did Yeshushua set the captives free and nail the record of sins to the cross? Does righteousness reign through Christ? or the self righteous law.?""""""
Law can not be self righteous, it is only as righteous as it's giver. If you are asking how salvation was found in OT times, It was granted by HaShem to the faithful.
