When people teach from the altered translations, are they not teaching error.
End quote
The context of the verse indicates those that are not abiding in him. Those that Paul talked about who started with us but were not of us.
If I may, 1526 Tyndale translation
John 15:27 And ye shall beare witnes also because ye have bene with me from the begynninge.
Could it be that since they were in transition, first the gospel went to the Jews who required signs and then to the Gentiles who did not. Could it be this is before the consummation /end of jewish age and when the grace gospel kicked in full blast hence your comment about the verse in John 15 1-2 not showing grace ? Could it also be a reference to those saints that were first hearing the gospel ,that work out their own salvation.?
In a similar manner in Matthew 18:23-35, the Lord uses stronger language.
Matthew 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
So the king forgave this mans debts. Now look what happens.
18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
So the King forgave the servant. But when the king heard that the servant didn't forgive his fellow servant, the king revoked that forgiveness and delivered him to the tormentors until everything was paid.
This is totally consistent with Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
and 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Glad you joined in on discussion. But be forewarned, if you do not believe in theself made doctrines of Prophetic7744 (Richard) then you will be PELTED with massive copy and paste of Bible verses and out of topic Bible verses of the thread in question.
Matthew 18:23-35 and 6:12-15 are GREAT examples in how we should love our brothers and sisters! We should forgive them no matter their "trespasses" or "debts" toward us should they elect to treat us in that fashion. Its not easy to do but by Yahweh's strength (like Yah'shua the WORD did in HisFather's strength) we can do it all! Forgiveness is the key word!
And so it is in the your previous post of John 15:10, it clearly states that if we keep the last six commandments, which is LOVE to our fellow neighbor, we will remain in His love; even as Yah'shua (_esus) have kept His Father's commandments, and abided in His love as an example to us today!
Yah'shua says to us - "If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."
Prophetic7744 (Richard) says we only need to keep the first 3 of 4 of the Ten Commandments toward Yahweh??? Strange, huh?
Now Teddyhugger does not believe in eternal torment in Hell??
**BUT WHAT DOES GOD'S WORD SAY**??
Revelation 19:20; 20:10: But the Beast {666} was captured, and with him the False Prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the Beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were **THROWN ALIVE INTO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR**.... And the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the Beast and the False Prophet had been thrown. They will be **TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER!!
Revelation 14:9-11: The angel said in a loud voice, "If anyone worships the Beast and his image and receives the mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of His wrath. They will be **TORMENTED WITH BURNING SULFUR** in the presence of the holy angels and the **LAMB**. And the smoke of **THEIR TORMENT WILL RISE FOR EVER AND EVER**. There will be **NO REST DAY OR NIGHT** for those who worship the Beast!!
Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches.... I warn everyone who reads the words of this prophecy of this book. If anyone**ADDS** {Like Teddyhugger} anything to them, God will add to them all the plagues described in this book {Including eternal torment in hell like Rev 14:9-11 & Rev 20:10 above}. And if anyone **TAKES WORDS AWAY** {Like Teddyhugger}} from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him any share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City {The New Jerusalem}, which are described in this book!!"
So here we see that anyone who **ADDS* words to the prophecies in Revelation that God will **ADD* to him all the plagues described in the Book of Revelation which would include eternal torment in hell mentioned in Rev 14:9-11 and Rev 20; 10 listed above!!
Matthew 25:41,46: "Then Jesus will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the **ETERNAL FIRE** prepared for the Devil and his angels.... Then they will go away to **ETERNAL PUNISHMENT**, but the righteous to **ETERNAL LIFE**!!
2 Thessalonians 1:8,9: Jesus will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with **EVERLASTING** destruction!!
Daniel 12:1,2: There will be a time of distress {The Great Tribulation} such as not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the {**LAMB'S**} Book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to **EVERLASTING LIFE**, others to shame and **EVERLASTING CONTEMPT**!!
John 12:48: Jesus says, "There is a Judge for those who do not accept **MY WORDS*, the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the Last Day!!"
And those who do accept the Words of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ on everlasting torment in Hell have committed an unpardonable sins off **ADDING** and **TAKING WORDS AWAY** from the **WORD OF GOD**!!
And so God's Word clearly shows when the lost are thrown **ALIVE** into the **FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR** they will be:
**TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER** {Revelation 20:10 above}
**THEIR TORMENT WILL RISE FOR EVER AND EVER AND THEY WILL HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT** {Revelation 14:9-11 above}
**THEY WILL HAVE SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT** {Daniel 12:2 above}
**THEY WILL HAVE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT IN THE ETERNAL FIRE** {Matthew 25:41,46 above}
You overthrew Your adversaries by Your great majesty. You unleashed Your burning wrath; it consumed them like stubble.
Exodus 24:17
And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like a consuming fire on the mountaintop in the eyes of the Israelites.
Deuteronomy 9:3
But understand that today the LORD your God goes across ahead of you as a consuming fire; He will destroy them and subdue them before you. And you will drive them out and annihilate them swiftly, as the LORD has promised you.
Isaiah 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling grips the ungodly: "Who of us can dwell with a consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting flames?"
Jeremiah 25:37
The peaceful meadows will become lifeless because of the LORD's burning anger.
Hebrews 10:27
but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries.
For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 10:27
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Numbers 11:1
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
2 Peter 3:7
And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Psalm 97:3
Fire goes before Him and consumes His foes on every side.
KJVonly: Actually all the verses you quoted excepot for 2 Peter 3:7 and Hebrews 10:27 were about God killing and destroying the armies who were enemies of His chosen Israel.
In 2 Peter 3:7 and Hebrews 10:27 God is talking about the fire that will destroy the present heaven and earth on the same day as the Judgment of the uhgodly as per 2 Peter 3:7,10 below!!
2 Peter 3:7,10: By the same word the present heavens are reserved for fire, being kept for the DAY OF JUDGMENT and destruction of the ungodly.... But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. the heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed **BY FIRE** and the earth and everything in it will be burned up!
And then the ungodly lost will be resurrected for Judgment Day as shown in Matthew 25:41,46 below:
Please give your analysis of all the versus in God's Word I have quoted abiout eternal torment for ever and ever in Hell below:
**BUT WHAT DOES THE WORD OF GOD OUR CREATOR SAY**??
Revelation 19:20; 20:10: But the Beast {666} was captured, and with him the False Prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the Beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were **THROWN ALIVE INTO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR**.... And the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the Beast and the False Prophet had been thrown. They will be **TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER!!
Revelation 14:9-11: The angel said in a loud voice, "If anyone worships the Beast and his image and receives the mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of His wrath. They will be **TORMENTED WITH BURNING SULFUR** in the presence of the holy angels and the **LAMB**. And the smoke of **THEIR TORMENT WILL RISE FOR EVER AND EVER**. There will be **NO REST DAY OR NIGHT** for those who worship the Beast!!
Revelation 22:16,18,19: "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches.... I warn everyone who reads the words of this prophecy of this book. If anyone**ADDS** {Like Teddyhugger} anything to them, God will add to them all the plagues described in this book {Including eternal torment in hell like Rev 14:9-11 & Rev 20:10 above}. And if anyone **TAKES WORDS AWAY** {Like Teddyhugger}} from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him any share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City {The New Jerusalem}, which are described in this book!!"
So here we see that anyone who **ADDS* words to the prophecies in Revelation that God will **ADD* to him all the plagues described in the Book of Revelation which would include eternal torment in hell mentioned in Rev 14:9-11 and Rev 20; 10 listed above!!
Matthew 25:41,46: "Then Jesus will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the **ETERNAL FIRE** prepared for the Devil and his angels.... Then they will go away to **ETERNAL PUNISHMENT**, but the righteous to **ETERNAL LIFE**!!
2 Thessalonians 1:8,9: Jesus will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with **EVERLASTING** destruction!!
Daniel 12:1,2: There will be a time of distress {The Great Tribulation} such as not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the {**LAMB'S**} Book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to **EVERLASTING LIFE**, others to shame and **EVERLASTING CONTEMPT**!!
John 12:48: Jesus says, "There is a Judge for those who do not accept **MY WORDS*, the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the Last Day!!"
And those who do accept the Words of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ on everlasting torment in Hell have committed an unpardonable sins off **ADDING** and **TAKING WORDS AWAY** from the **WORD OF GOD**!!
And so God's Word clearly shows when the lost are thrown **ALIVE** into the **FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR** they will be:
**TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER** {Revelation 20:10 above}
**THEIR TORMENT WILL RISE FOR EVER AND EVER AND THEY WILL HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT** {Revelation 14:9-11 above}
**THEY WILL HAVE SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT** {Daniel 12:2 above}
**THEY WILL HAVE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT IN THE ETERNAL FIRE** {Matthew 25:41,46 above}
Here are some other verses which uses the same word.
Johh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.
Matthew 21:21 be thou removed
Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, Be put away from you, with all malice:
Luke 23:18 And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man( or "take this man away"), and release unto us Barabbas:(also John 19:15)
In any case, I think that we should certainly do further research, taking into consideration every possibility before we pass judgement on any translator.
Mark 9:47,48: Jesus says, "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with on eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into **HELL**, where their worm will not die, and their fire shall not be quenched!"
Our great God and Savior says "I am the way and the **TRUTH**!!"
Luke 16:19-28: Jesus says, "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. And the time came when Lazarus died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.. The rich man also died and was buried. In **HELL** where he was **IN TORMENT**, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus at his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am agony in this fire.' But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm that has been set in place, so that those who want to come from here to you cannot nor can anyone cross over from there to us..' He answered, 'I beg you , send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this **PLACE OF TORMENT!'"
Those who interpret this narrative as a true incident have several reasons for doing so. First, the story is never called a parable. Many other of Jesus' stories are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed (Luke 8:4); the prosperous farmer (Luke 12:16); the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6); and the wedding feast (Luke 14:7). Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.
Third, this particular story does not seem to fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.
