This was a great conference. It exposes the deep errors in the Charismatic/Word of Faith movements. I am providing links to all of the sermons/teachings that were given at the conference.
There are two Q & A's that were particular useful and practical.
DISCLAIMER: I do not necessarily endorse everything that Dr. MacArthur teaches elsewhere. Nor, is this my personal endorsement of each of these individuals or their teachings. However, there was much truth to be gleaned from their teachings in this particular conference.
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Strange Fire, part of Grace to You�s Truth Matters conference series, evaluates the doctrines, claims, and practices of the modern charismatic movement, and affirms the true Person and ministry of the Holy Spirit.
The conference features pastor and Bible teacher John MacArthur, as well as teaching or presentations by:
R.C. Sproul
Steve Lawson
Conrad Mbewe
Tom Pennington
Phil Johnson
Nathan Busenitz
Justin Peters
Todd Friel
Joni Eareckson Tada
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SERMON LINKS:
Strange Fire (John MacArthur)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRqD89ZBWyg
A Deeper Healing (Joni Eareckson Tada)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI22o5u32z0
Undervaluing Pentecost (R.C. Sproul)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f37jFQlb6aQ
:yay: Calvin�s Critique of Charismatic Calvinists (Steve Lawson)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3du945worc
The African Import of Charismatic Chaos (Conrad Mbewe)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iciI6qfd70s
Testing the Spirits (John MacArthur)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKiGrPsbtA8
A Case for Cessationism (Tom Pennington)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o0z-J4RnwE
A Word from the Lord? Evaluating the Modern Gift of Prophecy (Nathan Busenitz)
http://www.gty.org/MediaPlayer/sermons/TM13-8
:yay: Is There a Baby in the Charismatic Bathwater? (Phil Johnson)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlwCcIiQs1Y
The Devilish Puppet Master of the Word-Faith Movement (Justin Peters)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTrMSOrYew
Strange Fire Panel Question and Answer, Session 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhG2CBVQy3w
The Puritan Commitment to Sola Scriptura (Steve Lawson)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0292T7KCd0
Are We Preachers or Witch Doctors? (Conrad Mbewe)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jEUOspvgsE
Charismatic Counterfeits: Do the Modern Gifts Meet the Biblical Standard? (Nathan Busenitz)
http://www.gty.org/MediaPlayer/sermons/TM13-14
Providence Is Remarkable (Phil Johnson)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WUuJCnBED0
Spiritual Shipwreck of the Word-Faith Movement (Justin Peters)
I agree with the words of Richard and I want to repeat them:
"actually those who teach that you have to receive the gift of tongues to be saved contrdict many Scriptures. I believe that speaking in tongues is miraculously speaking in a foreign language that you have not learned and Paul advises that if someone speaks in tongues there should also be someone who interprets what is said."
"actually those who teach that you have to receive the gift of tongues to be saved contrdict many Scriptures."
That is absolutely true, some people never receive the gift of tongues. In fact generations of people didn't. There is only one way to be born again or as you say saved...the blood of Jesus and asking for forgiveness and accepting Jesus into your heart. As i said in a previous post, WHEN you do that you are given the Spirit of God, this is the indwelling that helps you grow in the word and your relationship with God.
When i speak in tongues, it is almost always when i am alone or very quiet when i am not. The fact is we are in a war, saved or not saved, between the devil and God. The devil has been around a while and he undoubtedly listens to Christians. Speaking in tongues is a language unknown to me and likely anyone else but God that the devil cannot comprehend.
As for the ending of the gifts of the Spirit. Most often this is quoted;
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Now that chapter basically says the same thing i am saying:
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Without LOVE and an extreme love of truth it is pretty easy to misuse / fake things that get you wealth and fame. The saddest part is those that want to believe will, being deceived... go an deceiving. THANKFULLY God gets to judge all that and i don't have to worry bout it too much except to say the truth. THE FAKE or in ERROR DOES NOT MAKE THE TRUE INVALID!
Jesus said a few things about it and there is some scripture that does as well.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
And finally;
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
All these instructions, now some will say that they were only for the apostles but Paul had the same gifts, the Romans saved when Peter was sent to them had the same Spirit.
As i said i have seen the reality of it in my life, some of it pretty common (tongues) some of it very rare, well i was going to say healing but i have seen much of that to lesser degrees that could be discounted easily but the brother in law there was no way, He got better, he passed that year of school, and to this day he has a metal plate from ear to ear across his forehead.
As for being prayed for to receive tongues?? Try asking the Father for a blessing of His Holy Spirit and believing He wants to give it. Then if you ever speak in tongues or not is irrelevant, it is one of the gifts not the only gift.
Luk 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
I asked you to describe your personal experience to analyze that here.
If you do not want to do that it is ok.
What was the purpose of this gift of tongues in the early Church?
To show people their sins! We will read about it below...
Let me answer to my questions which I raised here:
Let's consider what is your tongues:
(1) Describe what is this tongues which you speaks...- You didnt described that. Ok.
(2) What is the purpose of this tongue.
- You do not know.
In the New Testament two lists of gifts appear in which the gift of tongues is just ONE of them! (In 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 �kinds of tongues� and �the interpretation of tongues�. In 1 Corinthians 12:28-30 �tongues� appears in the list of gifts.)
The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the distribution of these gifts!
�But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will� (1 Corinthians 12:11).
We must be careful that we do not confuse the Holy Spirit as a gift to the believer to confort him and teach with the gifts the Spirit gives to believers!
The Meaning of Speaking in Tongues:
1. So, what are the reasons why God gave the gift of speaking in tongues?
First, to communicate the Gospel message.
Every man heard them speak in his own language (Acts 2:6). The disciples were speaking in KNOWN languages other than the language native to them to proclaim the Gospel.
2.Edification of the Church and To say to unbelievers what God.i.e. the Spirit of God says !
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, �God is really among you!�
(1 Corinthians 14:22).
So then, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.
So, the true function of the gift of tongues is �for a sign . . . to them that believe not.�!!!! REMEMBER that!
Where the gifts are listed twice in 1 Corinthians 12, in each instance tongues and their interpretation are placed last (verses 8-11 and 28-30).
26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.1 Corinthians 14
(3) How does it work and COMPARE it with what God gave us in the Bible.
- The Holy Spirit speaks through believers to edify the Church. It is like a sort of a prophecy!!!!
Summary:
Why I do NOT believe that you speak in tongues:
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
All believers are commanded to �be filled with (controlled by) the Spirit� (Ephesians 5:18), but nowhere in Scripture are believers commanded to speak in tongues.A Christian can be under the influence and control of the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues. There are numerous instances when the disciples were filled with the Spirit but did not speak in tongues. See Acts 4:31 and 13:9-11. To be Spirit-filled is to be Spirit-controlled.
�Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not� (1 Corinthians 14:22). So you see, the Christians at Corinth were showing that they were weak in faith, and possibly some
Let's read again: 1 Corinthians 12:
30 Not all have gifts of healing, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all interpret, do they?
Many Christians think that they have to speak in tongues for "self-edification" 1 Corinthians 14:4:
13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say �Amen� at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
But the Scripture said that this gift was given in the early Church for the edifying of the Church� (14:12)!!! The gifts were given for the edification and profit of the entire Body of Christ, not merely one member! �The members should have the same care one for another� (12:25).
If Christians would take seriously, within context, all of the teaching about tongues in 1 Corinthians, they could not fail to see that tongues-speaking would cease. Paul writes, �Charity (love) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away� (13:8).
The gifts of �prophecy� and �knowledge� will be entirely unnecessary with the completion of the Scriptures. That is why we should not "BARK" as many churches bark because God WARNED us that �if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book� (Revelation 22:18). No one should say ANY word on behalf of God if God does NOT utter that! REMEMBER that!
The Church of Christ does not need today new apostles, nor new faith-healers, nor new charismatic movements, nor self-styled miracle workers! What the Church needs is to return to the Word of God and proclaim the Gospel to unbelievers in the power and love of the Holy Spirit.
13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say �Amen� at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1 Corinthians 14: 14
Here we see that here "my spirit prays" and " my spirit sings".
This is already NOT the Holy spirit prayes through believers!
NOTE that!
But what does this verse mean?
Verse 14. - My understanding is unfruitful. But why? Why am I only aware that I am praying?
"my spirit prays" i.e. I pray with my breath vocally or else with affection and devotion, understanding what I say myself, and so am edified.
But my understanding is unfruitful because what I say with understanding to myself is unprofitable to others, not being understood by them/Christians in the Church.
Why is this explanation of this verse is REASONABLE?
Because the Holy Spirit does NOT pray to the Father when believers OPEN the mouth! But He prays for believers ONLY this way:
Romans 8:26-27
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings which CANNOT be UTTERED. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
At least the Scripture says that, as we all read that.
Now let me ask you Gary: do you pray daily in tongues of the Holy Spirit? Or do you speak daily to unbelievers in tongues to make them believers?
Do you edify yourself speaking in "unknown" tongues if you do NOT understand these tongues?
My answer to all these questions: Most probably you were just deceived by "christians" as I was and you do not speak in any tongue. LOL
Actually i did answer the questions you asked. i said NOT everyone speaks in tongues just like not everyone moves in the gift of healing or the word of knowledge etc.
i also described how i do speak in tongues and that it was only personal. i have seen those that do it in service and another interpret but i have never done this. This has been controversial for a long time and the Baptist church that got kicked out wrote a book about the experience called "Bite Your Tongues" :ROFL:
It is in my opinion a deeper experience than most have or will allow i grant you that and i also have said that it can be and has been abused and faked. JUST like all of the life of salvation. Remember in bible time they had this ; Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
so it is an ongoing battle.
When the apostles were preaching and healing, there was a time when Peter was so full of the Spirit that they thought his shadow would heal;Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. That was never in the bible they had yet it was done. For me i get truth and an understanding of God through the bible, i have a set of rules to obey but if it is not forbidden then it is up to us to determine, IE. is smoking cigarettes sinful?? i say yes but that sin can be forgiven.
If our friendship lasts a month or 30 years one thing i pray you never see me do is try to force people into a position they are not comfortable going into. There were Christians for like 1700 years that didn't believe the gifts of the Spirit were for their NOW time. i was pretty skeptical at first when i heard of it.
The path we each are on is 2 people wide, you, or me, or whoever, and Jesus. ONLY HE knows the next step for each of us and i have reached the point that i am VERY good with that! Knowing the word like you do ( a spiritual gift) and having the service you do is pretty much a tip that you are working with God through His Spirit, let Him lead and as you know it will never contradict the bible.
BTW it and any of the gifts of the Spirit are like anything else that comes from God, it is something you chose to do not something that He makes you do. He is not like that!~ :angel:
When the early Church was baptized by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, all spoke in FOREIGN languages/tongues..NOTE: they did NOT bark! LOL :ROFL: And it was NOT their wish to speak in these tongues but they were MOVED by the Holy Spirit.
Why? What is the purpose of these tongues? - (1) GOSPEL proclamation/powerful Witness to speak in tongues which understand other people/unbelievers who are present in Church for example!
(2) Hearing what the Spirit of God says and it is like the gift of profecy!
It is not like what you think when you try to "speak DAILY" to God in payers in "tongues"! Because it would be MADNESS! Why? Because in this case God the Spirit would need to talk to another God -the Father- ONLY when you open your mouth! LOL
He speaks with the Father ANYTIME as the verse above speaks.
I believe in this and will NOT believe anything else except what God said in the Bible. Sorry.
If it is the Pentecost indecent i am confused? Clearly i said in a previous post that they did speak in languages that were known. Didn't say this but scripture points out that there were people from all around that were there for Pentecost that spoke different languages.
If it is that God FORCED them to do that, show the scripture that says that???? Be careful to read scripture for what it both says and doesn't say. Not saying you are but i have in years past put a preconceived and wrong understanding in a verse that wasn't actually there.
AS for scripture;
This describes EXACTLY what i do in private..
.....1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.....
So perhaps i can get a little slack :yay:
Personally i think this is an issue we should let God teach each of us the truth about as we are discussing HIS Spirit and Jesus plainly said here;
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Not that i believe either of us are close to that but i try to be extra careful in that area along with forgiveness for the wrong done to me.
i am sorry that someone lied to you about the subject, it is unfortunate that lies exist in the world and one day as it says in revelations they will no longer be allowed. Again i would point you to our Father in heaven and LET Him lead you in it or not. It is NOT a salvation issue so don't begin to think it is Proof of that is the thief that was saved on the cross next to Jesus, no baptism, no filling with the spirit, no making things right with the people he stole from, just faith in Jesus.
