Thread: Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
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Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 11:48 AM
Hi Everyone,
This article I wrote will be dealing with the issue of "Eternal Security" also known as "OSAS" Once Saved Always Saved". This theology is an off shoot from Calvinism's 5th point called "Preseverance of the Saints". What some of you do not know is that the belief of OSAS or "Onced Saved Always Saved" did not exist or come into being until the 1500s AD when John Calvin invented it. Prior to that, no record is found anywhere in Church history that anyone ever believed or taught this. The consistent view of Chritianity has always been that a true Christian could forfeit their salvation should they committ the one sin called Apostasy.
Those who believe in OSAS like Southern and Independent Baptists do will claim that if a person who is truly saved will never commit Apostasy or that if they do then they were never really saved to beign with. The problem with that philosophy is that it is not supported by scripture. If a Christian was not able to commit Apostasy, to deny Christ totally, then why did God in His infinite wisdon have numerous scriptures written to warn Christians of the potential of that very thing? It seems absurd for God to warn His saved Christian children if it were not possible they could forfeit their salvation. Let's look at some scriptures that deal with this.
Let's first deal with a passage where Jesus was giving a private teaching to His 12 Disciples.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
I want you to first notice that Jesus is talking about branches that are..."IN ME" in other words in Him, these are Christians, true believers, born again. They are "IN CHRIST".
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide[continue] in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I have interjected the word [continue] next to "abide" as that is what that word means. It also means to "remain in a given relationship".
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides [continues] in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Now notice the word ..."IF"...in the next verse. The word "IF" denotes a CHOICE, a person's free will to choose. It is also making a conditional statement...."if you continue".
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 6 above is very telling. Christ has placed a condition upon a person's salvation. A person has the Free Will to continue "IN HIM" or not to and notice the consequences "IF" a person does NOT continue. They are CAST OUT, withered and they are BURNED. This is a permanent condition. Eternally condemned. You cannot re-graph a branch that has been cast out, withered and burned. There is no more hope for that "branch", that person.
Let's look at what Paul had to say.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
In the above passage Paul is making a very clear statement. He is stating that a person's salvation is "conditional" by using the phrase "IF" ye keep in memory what I preached unto you". The word "IF" is a conditional word and is in every translation written. 100% of all translators used this word for this phrase as well as the passage below. What both passages are clearly stating is that our Salvation is CONDITIONAL upon our CONTINUED FAITH in the Gospel / Christ. It has nothing at all to do with works. It is our FAITH in Christ, but it is still our choice to remain/ continue or not to. FREE WILL.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ....ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Note that Paul is not telling them of their need to obtain saving faith, but of their need to CONTINUE in their saving faith that they have already obtained and the consequence IF they do not continue which is forfeiture of their salvation. There would be no warnings if the threat and consequence of Apostasy were not real.
Paul consistently encouraged his readers but usually did so after he warned them of the dangers of committing Apostasy. Let me show you a pattern of writings he did regarding salvation, the dangers of "Falling Away" from the Christian Faith Encouragement to continue in the faith and how even he himself potentially could have become an Apostate or "Reprobate"/"Castaway"
Phil 3:9 � and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 � Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. NKJV
Acts 20:24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. NKJV
1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.NKJV
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (KJV)
There is an important analogy Paul is giving here. He is making it very clear in my opinion, that in order to receive an "imperishable crown" which we know is the crown of Life, we have to finish the race. We have to cross the finish line. Remember not everyone who is running in this race will cross the finish line.
Notice that Paul is saying that he must keep his flesh in subjection so it does not cause him to loose faith and abandon Jesus Christ. The Greek word for "castaway" is usually translated "reprobate" in the KJV. It is found in Romans 1:28, 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7, 2 Tim. 3:8, Titus 1:16, and Heb. 6:8. In the last passage it is translated "rejected." In every single case this word is used of the lost. If Paul was aware of the ever present peril of ultimately being lost through unbelief, we too need to be on guard.
Paul is again talking about running a race. He must love Track like me. LOL Notice he is encouraging his readers, who are CHRISTIANS I might add, to run the race in such a away as to receive the prize. He is not making any guarantees or any implications that they would finish the race but he encouraged them to do so. This encouragement was also more of a warning to them.
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,NKJV
Same theme. Run the race WITH ENDURANCE. Persevere to the end.
Mat 24: 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. NKJV
Jesus laid the foundation above that Paul continued to preach upon.
2 Tim 4: 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
Paul knew his time to die was coming very soon and he imparted some final words.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. NKJV
Paul was ready to die and he made it plain that he had finished the race and that he had KEPT THE FAITH. What is the opposite of keeping the Faith? NOT keeping the faith. Falling back unto UNBELIEF. APOSTASY. Forfeiture of one's Salvation.
There is a distinct difference between Arminian Theology and Weslyan.
Weslyan theology, which is what Assembly of God, Methodists and a few others believe, teaches that a Christian can lose their salvation by committing certain sins like adultery and fornication and then if the person repents then they regain their salvation back. That is simply not biblical and makes their salvation somewhat of a works based faith which is not biblical.
Arminian theology teaches that once a Christian has committed Apostasy, then they can never come back. They can never be forgiven again. Once salvation has been forfeited there is no more hope for that person. Coincidentally, this is also what the Earliest Church Fathers of the first two centuries taught. :-)
There are no number of sins or sins per se that will cause a Christian to lose their salvation. There is only one sin and one sin only that causes a Christian to "Forfeit" their salvation and that sin is called "Apostasy"aka "falling away." That is a total and complete rejection of Christ and His teachings. It is falling back to a state of UNbelief.
What is "Apostasy?"
According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God.
Paul warned just as Jesus did that in the last days there WILL BE a "Falling Away" from the faith. In 2Thess 2:3 Paul gave this warning of an event that will occur. So what is it?
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.
Apostasy is akin to a Divorce. A Christian divorcing from Christ. When this occurs, you are no longer His. You are no longer a Christian. You are no longer saved.
So how does this happen to a Christian?
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF,...... in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
Let's examine some key points here.
1) This passage is clearly addressed to the "Brethern". These are Christians. Jewish Christians but Christians nevertheless.
2) The warning is concerning Christians possibly developing an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" and if so, their departing from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you are with God to begin with. How does this occur?
3)" lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". Here we see that staying in a sinful lifestyle can harden a Christian's heart. That is what sin does. It hardens a person's heart to a point that they can fall back to a state of UNbelief and depart from God. This is what Apostasy is. A total rejection of Christ BY a Christian believer. Hardening is something that does not occur over night. It takes time but for each individual that time will vary.
4) 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Here is the condition placed upon our salvation. We are made partakers of Christ, ..."IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. What does that mean? It means that as long as we continue to believe in Christ, then we will remain a partaker of Christ.
Paul also related this same situation to the Christians in Rome. Paul was explaining to these Gentile Christians about unbelieving Israel and how some of the natural branches (Jews) were broken off so that Gentile Christians could be grafted into the vine. Then Paul gives a similar warning as Christ did.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. NKJV
Paul was warning these Gentile Christians not to be haughty but to fear. In other words do not be so secure in thinking that it is not possible for you as a Christian to fall back into "unbelief" and be cut off from God just as some Jews were.
Conclusion.
The scriptures above clearly refute the False teachings of OSAS and "Perseverance of the Faith". Calvinisms 5th point cannot stand.
We as Christians have a responsibility to choose to continue in Christ, "endure until the end" or not to. God does not force salvation on anyone nor does He stop a Christian from committing Apostasy.
1Cor 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 23 Mar, 2009 09:32 AM
i will also give a a reply... i have a draft.. thats not finished... i have been busy looking for a new job... hopefully i finish it before people forget about this forum topic.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 23 Mar, 2009 10:29 AM
Well Leon:waving:,
You added the Exact Scripture references that finished out my thoughts up on the False Doctrine Thread:peace:...
So let me see if I can add some a Reference that might continue right on from what You said Here too responding to JiMKs post:
YOU SAID:
God can do anything He chooses, except lie. As for allowing deception, I give you an example below.
1 Kings 22:21-23
And the Lord said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.
Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.'
The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.'
Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you."
AND I MIGHT ADD
Isa 9:13 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts.
Isa 9:14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.
Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
Isa 9:16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Isa 9:17 Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly.
For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still:waving:
.
Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.
Isa 9:19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.
Isa 9:20 And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:
Isa 9:21 Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah.
For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. :waving:
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 23 Mar, 2009 11:20 PM
OH, MY!... WALTER?... teaching a false doctrine? NO WAY! ...Not WALTER, the voice of god in his own mind!
Even with all his use of hermennoodles (hermeneutics) and his exorcist (exegetics) of scriptures, he still manages to get it all WRONG?!.... You don't say, can't believe that Walter of all people, would be teaching a false doctrine and is using wrong scriptures to state his point of view about a person losing or having security in his/her salvation! Wait... Is Walter teaching that one can lose their salvation? Or is he teaching that we cannot lose our salvation?... can't figure out which one... UNBEWEAVABLE!... so I will speak about not losing our salvation as according to scripture.
Yet, the Holy Spirit of God expressedly says through the voice of Jesus Christ to Peter...
John chapter 13.
What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.
Peter said to Him, You will never wash my feet! Jesus answered him, If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.
Simon Peter said to Him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!
Jesus said to him. The person who is BATHED (baptized in the Holy Spirit) need only to wash his feet (repent of his/her sins), but is competely clean(born again),and you are clean Peter, but not all of you(meaning Judas).
For Jesus knew who would betray Him therefore He said, You are not all clean.
Peter denied Jesus, but Judas betrayed Jesus.
Peter bitterly wept and repented of his sins for denying Jesus. Jesus forgave Peter and then appointed him to start the chruch in the book of Acts. But Judas suffered the penalty of sin which was death, and went out and killed himself, because his pride refused to allow him to repent, and went to hell.
When a christian is truly born again of the Holy Spirit and been washed (regenrated), there is now therefore no condemnation for those who ARE IN CHRIST JESUS! For where sin abound, GRACE ABOUND EVEN THE MORE. When a christain sins we have the forgiveness of Jesus Christ when we repent according to I John chapter 1. Washing is the regeneration of the Holy Spirit which is the salvation of all who are truly born again and believe in Christ and receive His payment for our sin debt.
All those warnings Paul writes in his letters are for those Gentiles and all christians who are not grounded or rooted in the word of God, and who are easierly lead astay by false doctrines and teachings, as what Walter posted with wrong scriptures. The Corinthians and all the other churches were new christians, new converts in the word of God. Converted from Judiasim, so it was Paul's spiritual duty and obligation to warn them about the tricks of the devil and how a person could get caught up in a false doctrine and walk away from what he had taught them about Jesus Christ.
The Judaizers taught that salvation came through circumcision, and this was the only way to find favor and get close to God. The Gentiles were caught up in this false doctrine and Paul had to warn them, which is also for us as well. As we see teaching false doctrine about salvation in many place, and poeple speaking as if they are the voice of God. God has said everything He intends to say about how to be saved and how we are secure in knowing that once we are truly saved in Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit seals us and that seal isn't broken.
How can a person lose something he/she never had? If a person turns away from God, most likely he/she was never there in Christ in the first place. The writer of Hebrews so states that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a person who has tasted (experienced or been blessed) by all spiritual blessings of God, to fall away, and if one should fall away after having TASTED the spiritual grace and blessings of God. Its is impossible to restore such a one, because he/she has trampled the sacrifice of Jesus' blood under their foot, and God ain't gone be pleased with you doing that to His Son's blood nor His great sacrifice. So there is a great punishment, and if God should so decide to forgive, this you find in the verses 7-20. But a truly born again Holy Ghost filled believer is not going to fall away from Christ, because they spend time listening to what the Holy Spirit is speaking in God's word, and it is settled in their hearts, and they don't put all they know about God based on what man is saying, God is trying say, as man tries to interpret what God is saying.
Whatever is in the Greek, Hebrew, or Latin, you can find the same word meaning in the English, after all most of our english words or either Greek, French, Latin, etc. Plus, the Bible has already been translated and inter[preted to English, so what the purpose of anything else.Reinterpreting what has already been interpreted? Its the definition that you must choose from, whether it will be #1 definition or #2, or #3. Don't take much of anything , but a good college dictionary, every word you find in the Bible in any language is also found in the dictionary.But most of all, The Holy Spirit will interpret all things to you. And He says if you have been truly regenerated, born again and filled with His Spirit, and He has SEALED you as the down payment of can nothingl be able to separarte us from the love of God...:zzzz::nahnah:
We cannot lose our salvation if you've got it in the first place. But if you only have a FORM OF GODLINESS, you are not truly born again!
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 24 Mar, 2009 06:28 PM
Ella,
Oh! Ella,
This is so sad to see again from you. Once again when a brother disagrees with you, you mock him and make false accusations. Why is it that you are the only one who behaves this way? We never see this kind of behavior when Leon and Walter disagree or when Dan and Walter disagree. This is shameful behavior on your part.
Ella, when I first arrived on this site, I looked up to you as an older more mature believer. Wow, was I wrong about the maturity part. Your condescending, mocking, and rude posts indicate a lack of Christian maturity in my opinion.
Remember that we are role models to some of the younger people on this site, and some of them have sent private emails to me expressing their shock and disappointment at your posts.
Is this the behavior of a Spirit filled, spiritually mature, Christian woman?
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 24 Mar, 2009 09:26 PM
Ella,
I copied and pasted a portion of your post with Dan.
Ella:
"One things for sure, we as christians who are faithful in His word, should all know for a fact, and that is that Jesus died a suffering sacrifical dead in humilations on a cross for our sins, and He reaally didn't have to do it... But PRAISE GOD HE DID, and for this cause, I'm grateful and I blessed His Holy powerful name for my salvation.
My goal is to be ready for whenever He does return, and to be caughtup (Raptured) in the sky with Him either way, from the grave or from the earth. I plan to catch that midnight train to heaven, and not to hell"
Ella, you spoke of being faithful to God's word. Please read this.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Ella, the words that jump off the page in relation to your post are love, kindness, and gentleness. Did you show these things in your post or did you show works of the flesh?? Hatred, contentions, dissensions, provoking one another
Ella, you also spoke of being ready when Christ returns.
Hatred, contentions, dissensions, provoking one another.
Is this what you would like to have our Lord find you doing when He returns?
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 24 Mar, 2009 09:33 PM
Ella,
Additionally: Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 24 Mar, 2009 09:54 PM
"This article I wrote will be dealing with the issue of "Eternal Security" also known as "OSAS" Once Saved Always Saved". This theology is an off shoot from Calvinism's 5th point called "Preseverance of the Saints". What some of you do not know is that the belief of OSAS or "Onced Saved Always Saved" did not exist or come into being until the 1500s AD when John Calvin invented it. Prior to that, no record is found anywhere in Church history that anyone ever believed or taught this. The consistent view of Chritianity has always been that a true Christian could forfeit their salvation should they committ the one sin called Apostasy." -walter4u
the church hasnt been right about a lot of things. from what i have seen, the church is always changing its views on things... it is also learning a lot more. that is why we have so many denominations... whats funny though is Gods word has never changed... just the interpitations. i think we know a lot more about the bibles meanings then did the early church. we are always discovering new things... a lot of which is claimed heresy thus a new denomination is formed... i think its a mistake to claim we now understand the bible 100% and that any new so called discoveries should be thrown away as heresies.
what era of the early church are we talking about?
"Those who believe in OSAS like Southern and Independent Baptists do will claim that if a person who is truly saved will never commit Apostasy or that if they do then they were never really saved to beign with. The problem with that philosophy is that it is not supported by scripture. If a Christian was not able to commit Apostasy, to deny Christ totally, then why did God in His infinite wisdon have numerous scriptures written to warn Christians of the potential of that very thing? It seems absurd for God to warn His saved Christian children if it were not possible they could forfeit their salvation. Let's look at some scriptures that deal with this." Walter4u
to say that its not supported in scripture, you would have to rip some of those pages out of the bible, or use some white out... it is very clearly supported in scripture. even i can acknowledge how an arminian can use a verse to support his claim.(i once shared in this belief) but i think they are missing some points when they use those verses and reading them in a biased way. it is up to the arminian to explain those verses that support calvinism, instead of pretending they are not even there. i will try to explain those so called arminian supported verses.
example, you say it is absured for God to warn his saved christians, if it were not possible they could forfeit their salvation. you are missing the very point of those verses you use to support this belief.
the mistake you make, is you assume if he is warning you not to rebel, then that means it is possible for you to rebel. that is the mistake... its an assumption you make and i think its a mistake a lot of christians make. but it is an assumption... all those verses you say are warnings, are just that! warnings! a warning is used for your own protection. God warns us to not turn from him. so what? you are quick to say "see this means you can commit appostasy!" no it doesnt... it means exactly what it says. in fact it is used to make sure his true children WILL NOT commit appostacy, If you are a true Christian, you would tremble at the thought of turning away from him, especially cause of these warnings... you would take his warnings seriously.. you -WILL NOT- turn from him. the FEAR of the Lord makes you tremble at such warnings, by way of the Holy Spirit. a non-christian on the other hand wont take his warnings seriously. God will warn them of eternal seperation, but they dont have the fear of the lord in them. they wont care... maybe cause one doesnt even really believe he exists... or one thinks he will wait to ask for Gods forgiveness on his death bed (thus being the other reason for the warnings), he would be with out excuse.
to say it is pointless for us to be warned, is to say, we need no warnings in life. it is warnings that are keeping me out of trouble... it is Gods warnings of turning from him, that keeps me from turning from him, which means as a true christian i wont turn away from him. the holy spirit will not leave me, and will not let me leave. if the Holy spirit enters you and then leaves you, that to me is completely pointless.... thats absurd. whats the point of the holy spirit of ever entering you if God knew you were going to rebel in the first place. The role of the Holy Spirit is to change you. its to convict you of your sin... it guides you, it changes you. if you are able to commit apostacy, then the holy would have failed its purpose.
Paul tells us that "the goodness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4). the Goodness is of God leads you to repentence... not the goodness of yourself. and to repent is to have a change of mind.
"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin [until the Holy Spirit convicted us to repent and come out of sin], yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin [forgiven and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ], you became slaves of righteousness [right doing and adherence to God's laws]" (Romans 6:17-18).
a slave can not free himself. he is a slave... in order for a slave to free himself he must have some power over his master. we have no power over God
"If you love me, keep My commandments," He told them, "and I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper [the Holy Spirit is to help, strengthen, nurture us], that He may abide with you forever" (John 14:15-16).
it doesnt say "that he may abide in your forever unless you commit apostacy."
the word forever means... forever. and i saw no condition in that verse.
John 16 records more of Christ's instruction about the role of the Holy Spirit. "It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send [it] to you" (verse 7).
notice how Jesus says "IF" i do not go away... walter i could say then "it must be possible for Jesus to not go away, since he used the word "IF". whats the point of Jesus using the word "IF" if it wasnt even possible for him to choose otherwise? would you say Jesus could have chose not to leave? NO, because it was His fathers will! even Jesus said about this to his father, "not my will, but yours be done"
the word "IF" does not mean that there are 2 possibilities. IF can be used to warn or keep one on the right path. (though it may not happen, or even be destined to happen)... though they may be possible. if its Gods will it wont happen. if it was possible for a christian to commit apostacy, but it wont happen. what if? doesnt mean it will or that it could. it helps us to understand the other scenario, so we are careful to avoid it, so that it wont happen... it is in no way pointless to use the word "if" in a one possible outcome scenario. Jesus used it and so did God. in many cases when God used If, it kept his people from falling away. True christians will hear these warnings and will obey them.
paul is warning the church as a whole... not just christians, and not just non-belivers... Paul doesnt know who is genuine, and so he speaks to them as a whole... the weeds will be weeded out by his warnings, while the plants will grow closer to God by his warnings... those are the 2 functions of the word "if"
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 25 Mar, 2009 09:51 AM
Jesus said there was only one sin that was unforgivable, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. To later add apostasy to that would make Christ a liar. Since we know God cannot lie, then our understanding of this verse must be skewed. What Paul was saying was, it is impossible for someone who is truly saved to fall away like that, because IF they did, this is what they would be doing. That is the only context that makes sense when the rest of the Bible is taken into consideration.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 25 Mar, 2009 10:59 AM
Ella,
Why do you bother responding to posts I write when you NEVER address the scriptures and demonstrate where I was in error. Just cause you say I am wrong does not make me wrong. Additionally your continued condescension only goes to show your immaturity in Christ. I don't care how vigorous you attack what I believe but when you make it personal you cross the line.
Every scripture I posted was clearly concerning a person's Salvation and each scripture was a a clear warning of the possibility of forfeiting one's salvation. This is the clear and consistent teaching of the Bible and the oldest and most orthodox view in Christianity. Once Saved Always Saved is irrefutably a new belief that did not exist anywhere in Church history prior to the 1500s. From the time of the Apostles until the 1500s the consistent teachings were that man has a Free Will to accept Christ and after salvation a man could reject Christ thereby forfeiting their salvation permanently and never get it back. That is what Apostasy is and only a Christian can commit the sin of Apostasy. This is basic Greek 101.
I will address your post and demonstrate your gross errors in interpretation.
ELLA: OH, MY!... WALTER?... teaching a false doctrine? NO WAY! ...Not WALTER, the voice of god in his own mind!
Even with all his use of hermennoodles (hermeneutics) and his exorcist (exegetics) of scriptures, he still manages to get it all WRONG?!.... You don't say, can't believe that Walter of all people, would be teaching a false doctrine and is using wrong scriptures to state his point of view about a person losing or having security in his/her salvation! Wait... Is Walter teaching that one can lose their salvation? Or is he teaching that we cannot lose our salvation?... can't figure out which one... UNBEWEAVABLE!... so I will speak about not losing our salvation as according to scripture.
WALTER: Anyone reading my post Ella can understand what my position is. Your attempt to poke fun at "Hermeneutics" and "Exegesis" only goes to prove that you are intimidated by someone who is educated in these areas which you obviously are not. This is simply childish behavior and really reflects bad upon you.
ELLA: Yet, the Holy Spirit of God expressedly says through the voice of Jesus Christ to Peter...
John chapter 13.
What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.
Peter said to Him, You will never wash my feet! Jesus answered him, If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.
Simon Peter said to Him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!
Jesus said to him. The person who is BATHED (baptized in the Holy Spirit) need only to wash his feet (repent of his/her sins), but is competely clean(born again),and you are clean Peter, but not all of you(meaning Judas).
For Jesus knew who would betray Him therefore He said, You are not all clean.
Peter denied Jesus, but Judas betrayed Jesus.
WALTER: Peter denied Christ.. BEFORE the cross...not after it. That is a significant point which you failed to address.
ELLA: Peter bitterly wept and repented of his sins for denying Jesus. Jesus forgave Peter and then appointed him to start the chruch in the book of Acts. But Judas suffered the penalty of sin which was death, and went out and killed himself, because his pride refused to allow him to repent, and went to hell.
WALTER: Neither Judas or any of the Apostles were saved in sense that occurs AFTER the cross. It is a pointless argument.
ELLA: When a christian is truly born again of the Holy Spirit and been washed (regenrated), there is now therefore no condemnation for those who ARE IN CHRIST JESUS! For where sin abound, GRACE ABOUND EVEN THE MORE. When a christain sins we have the forgiveness of Jesus Christ when we repent according to I John chapter 1. Washing is the regeneration of the Holy Spirit which is the salvation of all who are truly born again and believe in Christ and receive His payment for our sin debt.
WALTER: well you did a good job at mixing scriptures and taking them out of their context...as usual. However you made a point that you did not realize that you made and I thank you. You said above that there is not longer any condemnation for those who are "IN CHRIST". That is correct Ella however Jesus addressed this situation in John 15 which I presented before.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch...IN ME... that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
I want you to first notice that Jesus is talking about branches that are..."IN ME" in other words in Him, these are Christians, true believers, born again. They are... "IN CHRIST".
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide[continue]IN ME, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I have interjected the word [continue] next to "abide" as that is what that word means. It also means to "remain in a given relationship".
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides [continues] IN ME, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Now notice the word ..."IF"...in the next verse. The word "IF" denotes a CHOICE, a person's free will to choose. It is also making a conditional statement...."if you continue".
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue]... IN ME, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 6 above is very telling. Christ has placed a condition upon a person's salvation. A person has the Free Will to continue "IN HIM" or not to and notice the consequences "IF" a person does NOT continue. They are CAST OUT, withered and they are BURNED. This is a permanent condition. Eternally condemned. You cannot re-graph a branch that has been cast out, withered and burned. There is no more hope for that "branch", that person. Why would Jesus warn His very own Disciples of the danger of abandoning Him and committing Apostasy unless it could happen?
ELLA: All those warnings Paul writes in his letters are for those Gentiles and all christians who are not grounded or rooted in the word of God, and who are easierly lead astay by false doctrines and teachings, as what Walter posted with wrong scriptures.
WALTER: Prove your statement Ella. Show us scriptures that the people Paul was addressing were not Christians and prove they were not grounded in God's word. Irregardless of their level of maturity of faith and knowledge, it is a mute argument from you to diminish the very real warning Paul imparted to his readers of the dangers of FORFEITING their salvation.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, BRETHERN, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye HAVE RECEIVED, and wherein YE STAND;
1Cor 15:2 By which also YE ARE SAVED,...[present tense].... ....IF.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.KJV
These Christians are irrefutably SAVED people. Paul used the present tense "ARE SAVED" to demonstrate their present condition. Then he gave them a CONDITION of their salvation...."IF....YE KEEP IN MEMORY what I preached unto you. They are saved....IF.....they are saved....IF.
ELLA: The Corinthians and all the other churches were new christians, new converts in the word of God. Converted from Judiasim, so it was Paul's spiritual duty and obligation to warn them about the tricks of the devil and how a person could get caught up in a false doctrine and walk away from what he had taught them about Jesus Christ.
WALTER: Thanks for admitting they were Christians but you error as to their original backgrounds. The Corinthians were primarily GENTILES and NOT Jews. Were there Jews among them? Of course. But you error as to Paul's intent and his warnings. His warnings were concerning the real possibility of FORFEITING their salvation. YE ARE SAVED.....IF...Ye keep in memory the gospel which was preached to them. Or as he wrote to the Colossians.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, YET NOW HATH HE RECONCILED
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Don't miss this....
23 IF....YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH... grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Paul warned that they must CONTINUE IN THE FAITH....if they expected to be presented....HOLY....unblamable and unreproveable...in the sight of GOD.
What else did Jesus say about persevering in the faith in order to be saved?
Mat 24:13 But he who ENDURES TO THE END... shall be saved. NKJV
ELLA: The Judaizers taught that salvation came through circumcision, and this was the only way to find favor and get close to God. The Gentiles were caught up in this false doctrine and Paul had to warn them, which is also for us as well. As we see teaching false doctrine about salvation in many place, and poeple speaking as if they are the voice of God. God has said everything He intends to say about how to be saved and how we are secure in knowing that once we are truly saved in Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit seals us and that seal isn't broken.
WALTER: Again Ella you do not understand the whole counsel of God. What does it mean to be sealed by the Holy Spirit from the perspective of someone way back then? It is important to understand the meaning of a phrase or word as the original audience would have understood it and not apply a modern understanding. in other words Ella...what is the "Historical CONTEXT? That would mean...what is it's Historical HERMENEUTIC?
When we hear or see the word "sealed" today we mainly understand it to imply something permanent. However back in the day when Paul was writing his Epistles that was not the meaning....not even close. Let's examine this.
Those who subscribe to the Eternal Security doctrine or OSAS, use this following verse as support of their claim.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. KJV
When a document was sealed, it meant it was authentic. The official would roll up the legal document, place a piece of wax to hold the loose end, then press the insignia of his seal into the wax. This was similar to a notary stamp. As long as the document remained closed, and the seal intact, it was considered legally valid. This was to insure that the document was not altered.
Once the seal had been broken or tampered with it would invalidate the document.
Paul was warning us not to tamper with our seal. The verse in question was not a promise but a WARNING. That is why Paul started out by saying...."Grieve not the Holy Spirit......." That's a warning, not a promise. Something we have to be concerned about. Let's examine some other scriptures that support what I am saying where we can see the analogy that Paul was using when he spoke of being "sealed by the Spirit unto the day of redemption." The "day of redemption" is the day when we present our covenant with God, sealed by the Holy Spirit, to redeem our inheritance in the Kingdom of God. We must protect that covenant, and not tamper with the seal of the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance UNTILl the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.NKJV
The Holy Spirit has sealed us UNTIL the day of redemption comes, when we receive our inheritance. Was it possible for a Roman citizen to break the wax seal and tamper with the document? Sure it was. But this would certainly void the document. This is also true of one who breaks the seal of the Holy Spirit. That's why "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. In passages that speak of falling away, we see that this sin against the Holy Spirit is definitely involved with apostasy.
Let me also use this scripture Ella where you grossly misinterpreted it and twisted it's meaning.
Heb 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
(NASB)
Heb 10:29 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(KJV)
This is why Paul warned us not to tamper with our seal.
ELLA: Whatever is in the Greek, Hebrew, or Latin, you can find the same word meaning in the English, after all most of our english words or either Greek, French, Latin, etc. Plus, the Bible has already been translated and inter[preted to English, so what the purpose of anything else.Reinterpreting what has already been interpreted? Its the definition that you must choose from, whether it will be #1 definition or #2, or #3. Don't take much of anything , but a good college dictionary, every word you find in the Bible in any language is also found in the dictionary.
WALTER: This clearly demonstrates your serious lack of understanding the complexities of the Greek language and the fact that English is not nearly as accurate and in many cases does a great disservice to the original New Testament language of Greek. There are many places where the Greek texts were badly translated into English. Many times it was due to bias theology. Also by stating all you need is a good college dictionary goes to further demonstrate you gross lack of understanding the complexities of the original languages.
