This discussion will be a controversial one no doubt but one that I hope all will be open to searching out God's truth as opposed to having preconceptions about what we believe or have been taught.
In dealing with the Spiritual Gifts in the New Testament it is interesting to note that after the initial occurrance at Pentecost in the upper room when the Holy Spirit for the first time descended upon all the disciples that were there, there was only one exception when the Holy Spirit gave gifts prior to the laying on of hands by the Apostles. However an Apostle was present.
The incident was dealing with Peter who was not with the program so to speak so the Holy Spirit had to get him moving. haha. Other than that no one after ever received any of the spiritual gifts UNLESS the Apostles personally laid their hands on that person or the Apostles were at least present. It is also interesting to note that only the Apostles had the power to lay hands and impart spiritual gifts. Whoever received the spiritual gifts never had the power to impart those gifts to someone else. The person receiving gifts had the power of using the gifts but not to pass on the gifts themselves.
One of the most critical passages concerning this issue is below in Acts 8.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Notice that Phillip was utilizing the power of the gifts he had but also notice that the Apostles had to come and lay hands in order for other people to receive the gifts themselves. Phillip did NOT have the power to impart any gifts himself.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
What is often misunderstood by Charismatics and Pentecostals is that when the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit "falling down" on someone it is not talking about "Salvation" as everyone who places their faith in Christ, repents and is Baptized automatically receives the Holy Spirit Himself. When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit falling upon someone or they had not received the Holy Spirit as yet, it is speaking about the impartation of the gifts.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe?
That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts THROUGH the Apostles by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated. There was one other instance where people received the gifts without the laying on of hands by the Apostles BUT the Apostles were still present when this occurred.
Let's look at Romans and take notice of something that also supports the other scriptures.
In Rome a church had been formed but no Apostles had yet visited it and established it.
Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, THAT I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established�
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. NKJV
Here we see that the Roman Christians who were "saved" had not as yet received any supernatural "gifts". So it demonstrates that receiving gifts was not something the Holy Spirit did automatically upon salvation.
What had to happen?
An Apostle of Jesus Christ had to be physically present to impart the gifts through the "laying on of hands".
Here is another passage dealing with the special powers given exclusively to the Apostles and those who had received the gifts AT THAT TIME.
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
15 & 16 applies to us today as well as this is a commandment for us to spread the Gospel.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Verse 17 & 18 are not for the church today as no one has the legitimate gifts imparted by the Apostles of Christ because they are all dead and in Heaven now. No one today can cast out a demon nor drink poison and expect to live or handle a deadly snake and once bitten expect to live. No one also can lay hands on the sick and heal them today. God can do it and does perform miracles but no human has the" supernatural power" that the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ had. There are many fakers, many frauds and many well meaning deceived Christians who believe that they posses a "supernatural gift" from the Holy Spirit. The problem is that their beliefs are based upon some really bad teachings from gross misinterpretations of scriptures and "feelings". Men like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and their ilk have all been exposed for their fraudulent practices and giving False Prophesies...yet...people still follow them and will not accept the truth about them.
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they [the Apostles]went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV
I want to point out a few things here. First when the scripture here referres to "these signs will follow those that believe" and they will take up serpents, etc.,...this is talking about those who received the word of God FROM the Apostles and had hands laid upon them BY the Apostles of Christ. That as we have seen above is the normal method that a person received a spiritual gift. This is the proper interpretation of this passage. Now what is the "application" of this so far? Can we apply this for Christians today? I don't believe so because if that were true then Christians claiming to have received supernatural gifts would have these exact same powers as those above. They/ WE would be able to handle serpents and not be harmed... and also we could drink poisons and not be harmed. So I do not see any Biblical evidence to support the gifts being for today.
I don't hit and hide from answering questions. I have limited time to do a whole lot of anything since I have two full time jobs. It may take a day or two or three but I do answer questions.
In my original post you have not refuted anything I have said.You gave your "opinion" without any sound exegesis of the scriptures. To refute someone you have to able to show, in the Grammar, where the interpretation is wrong. The Greek is in 100% agreement with what I said or I should say I am in 100% agreement with the Greek Texts. I will demonstrate that to you very soon. You also have misinterpreted things I have said and put words into my mouth things I did not say.
One of the things I will briefly explain is this. When I said it was the "disciples" in the upper room at Pentecost I am 100% accurate. You are simply misunderstanding the word "disciples". What is a Disciple?
It is someone who follows Christ. All of those in the upper room were disciples of Christ. I was not meaning just the original 12 who later were Apostles.
What is often misunderstood by Charismatics and Pentecostals is that when the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit
...That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts THROUGH the Apostles by their laying on of their hands.
...no one has the legitimate gifts imparted by the Apostles of Christ because they are all dead and in Heaven now. No one today can cast out a demon nor drink poison and expect to live or handle a deadly snake and once bitten expect to live. No one also can lay hands on the sick and heal them today. God can do it and does perform miracles but no human has the" supernatural power" that the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ had. There are many fakers, many frauds and many well meaning deceived Christians who believe that they posses a "supernatural gift" from the Holy Spirit. The problem is that their beliefs are based upon some really bad teachings from gross misinterpretations of scriptures and "feelings". Men like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and their ilk
... WE would be able to handle serpents and not be harmed... and also we could drink poisons and not be harmed. So I do not see any Biblical evidence to support the gifts being for today.
�Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Matt. 12:31-32.
Walter you need to get a grip. Lets say you are right. what is the real point, Preaching to the choir? Do you have the gift of rebuking? I do not know.
But What If you are wrong, and the Holy Spirit is moving and working in well documented cases such as Alexander Dowie;
William J. Seymour; Kathern Kuhlman; Benny Hinn and Lonnie Frisbee. You say these works are not from the Holy Spirit? Where are they from. satan? Is that kind of assumption not the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Matt. 12:31-32 ?
I noticed you were very careful not to say these works are of the devil. That would be flat out stupid. I just fail to see the point in attacking other believers. This raises a red flag to me. People who always dwell on the negative fail to set their minds on things above.
Now about these gifts of the Spirit, YOU should KNOW there are THREE lists of gifts. The one you are talking about are 1 Corinthians 12 manifestations of the Spirit.
But Ephesians 4:7-11 says Jesus gave gifts to the Church; apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers,
"for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith"
You say there are no more Apostles? So every church having "Apostolic" in it's name is false? And those who are called Apostles today are all false? Apostle means "sent one." Has God really stopped calling and sending out workers.maybe you think we have already "come to the unity of the faith." I don't think so. your post on this is clear evidence of that. What about Prophets? Do you believe the only prophets today are false ones? Are Evangelists not for today either. Where do you draw the line. Pastor and teachers are still needed. How do you decide what parts of bible to throw out and what to accept?
The other list of gifts, and I'm sure you must know this, is Romans 12:6-8. These are gifts from God we are born with.
"Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:6-8.
Does your Heramneutics come from a little guy named Herman? Can you switch back and forth between isogesis and exigeses and miss the whole context of God's Word?
These three "Lists O Gifts" show a pattern.
Romans 12:6-8 are gifts from the Father everyone is born with.
Ephesians 4:7-11 are gifts from Jesus to build the Church.
1 Corinthians 12 are manifestations of the Holy Spirit through individuals.
Three Lists O Gifts from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And these three are One.
But as a matter of Faith remember what Jesus said, "And to the centurion Jesus said, �Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.�
Have Faith like a Mustard seed or at least as much as a Roman soldier. If you do not believe in Spiritual gifts and that works for you so be it. As a Man thinks in his heart...so is he.
Glad you showed up:winksmile: Sorry, you had to come out before completeing your nap... I know you are fit to be tired after working two jobs.... get some rest and come back ready to defend.:zzzz:
Now, I won't be long, but I have another issue I must address. I know you will not have time to reply right away, but you can be pondering these things until you have proper time to address them.
For over the 25 years, I have been in training and continuous learning God's Word and His work. I've had some great teachers who have taught me a lot of things especially, about the use of WORDS ( terminology), that certain men who have determined for themselves that they are all knowledgeable and spiritual in interpreting and understanding God's Word. And they come to use terms they or others have coined to define or describe what THEY THINK they know in, or about God, or His Word, or what they ASSUME or THINK God is saying in His Word. but the use of these great swelling words means nothing.
I was taught to stick to what GOD IS SAYING at face value, and lean not to my own or others understanding. Of course, read what great men of God who have tarried for years in the Word and have come faced with God in His presence in their personal spiritual experiences have to say about the Word, and who have spent many years writing and interpreting scriptures. But never use any one interpretation(always compare), never use any word (s) that a person can't find or back up in the Bible. As not to offend those who may not understand what I'm speaking, or who may not understand or know the meaning of the word (s), and /or may be of simple mindedness.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is simple, and what God speaks to us is as it should be written simple for even a child to understand. Therefore, please know that I am not ignorant of technical theological terms or their use, but there are those viewing this board and on these board who may not know the meanigns of these terms used by some in the study of the Bible.
Therefore, for the sake of the gospel and the teaching there of, please reframe from using such words that have nothing to do with what the Word of God is saying. Exegesis sounds big and great, and makes you feel like you know what your'e talking about, and look like you're all smart and stuff. But to used the term "explain" or "making clear with the scriptures",in your sentences still would have meant the same and made your point.
As Paul writes to the Corinthians in chapter 2, When I came to you, I did not come with excellence of speech (words) or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God, Because I determined that I would not know anything more than you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified... no persuasive words or human wisdom, but in demonstration of the power of the Spirit and of/with power. In other words, let's cut the word game, so others viewing this thread may learn in, and from our discussion.
Using words that are unfamilar to the hearers, is not good... BUT, if you would like to get all technical with words, between the two of us, fine. Maybe I will be able to make use of my postgraduate learnings in Biblical Studies for what its worth:yay: No, that wouldn't be fair to the readers... So let's keep it plain and simple...
Hurry back! And get some rest:zzzz::winksmile:
BTW, before you respond, Please make sure you spend time reading your post, then read what I posted so you will know what I stated and have a chance to read those scriptures in reference to your error:excited::winksmile:
Thank you for copying this last part of Walter's statement. I wish I knew how to copy and paste LOL... One day, I'll learn LOL..
This part of Walter's statement is very important and I'm anxious to hear how he explains his thought on what he has said, because it is in biblical error. To what Jesus has said in the gospels, and what Luke has written in the book of Acts, Walter's statement contradicts everything the Word has said here.
(1) Walter states that, "No one has the legitmate gifts imparted by the apostles of Christ because they are all dead, and in heaven. What in the world does that mean? The scriotures you have posted goes against this and makes clear the word of God. Apostles never imparted gifts to no one according to the word of God.
(2) No one today can cast out a demon... well, this also goes against the grains of what the scriptures says, and what Jesus commissions us in His last words. The commission was not just for the disciples of Christ, it applies to ALL WHO BELIEVE and are disciples of Christ. So I don't have a clue as to what Walter means by this either. In all of these things we must have the given power of the Holy Spirit to do these things, and this comes only from God when we have submitted to His call to be filled and baptized with His power.
Maybe I should cast out that demon that is hindering Walter's understanding, so that his understanding might be open and clear to receive the truth of God's Word and His Holy Spirit with power... :yay::ROFL::excited:
Loose Walter, you demon spirit, and come out of him in the name of Jesus... you demonic spirit :devil:...
I betcha thata learn him:ROFL:
Thanks Dave and its so good other believers are speaking out in their faith...
If you have had formal instruction in biblical studies, then you know that the original manuscripts of Mark 16 did not go any farther than verse 8, it was only many years later that someone claimed to have a manuscript that was complete. It was added, and later it was discovered that it did not match the original writing. That is why you will seldom hear a trained minister using them for doctrine.
What Walter has stated here is standard Bible doctrine, and has been taught for much longer than the Charismatic version of which you speak. His doctrinal views are as much, if not more accepted as common. This does not mean that either of you are right, just that you are both teaching what many others already believe. There is nothing off-the-wall about either teaching, they are both normal.
I have a hard time understanding why you are getting so upset over this. We have had a lot worse doctrines posted to this site than this. Just as his views are Armenian, and mine lean toward Calvinist, his views are traditional, and yours are Charismatic. They are both standard doctrines right now. I don't understand him being treated like he made up a brand new doctrine.
We are supposed to discuss these things as long as we can do it without causing problems.
Dave,
The context of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was that Jesus was accused of being possessed by a demon, when in fact it was the Holy Spirit. Do you remember where that Spirit came from? After being baptized, the spirit of God (The Father) descended on Him like a dove and stayed. Just as in the OT, when this happened, Jesus started preforming miracles. The spirit that "possessed" Jesus was the spirit of God. That is the context of this verse about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
After the death of Christ, His Spirit enters us upon acceptance of Him. Different Spirit. The spirit of the Father only comes on people for a specific purpose, and usually leaves after it is accomplished. Was there anything that Jesus couldn't do? That is the difference in which spirit gives what gifts. There is just too much to this to get into tonight, but if you are interested i can sit down tomorrow and write it all out.
We have to keep a loving spirit as we discuss these things. I know that I get out of hand at times too. I apologize for that, and I try not to let it happen, but we can all see where this one is headed if we are not careful.
You are misreading what I'm saying. What cause do you have you to conclude that I'm upset at what Walter is saying. This not true. I'm trying to get an understanding as to what and where he is getting all of this information, sure isn't biblical. That doesn't mean I'm upset, I'm asking questions and probing trying to get answers, and voicing my what I know and my thoughts, this doesn't mean I'm upset. I have no reason to be upset. So where are you this getting this notion from? I don't see how you can view my question and statements that what Walter is saying is in error, as being upset. I mean, If you can't ask question without thinking it will cause a problem then something is wrong, when a perosn does not want to discuss what it is he/she say they know...
What not the people questioned what the disciples taught do you thinl they would have believed as they believed? We are taught to study and reasson with one another in scripture, we're not arguing, I am questioning his statement that the apostles gave out gifts, and that the no one in the church today, has the gifts of the Holy Spirit to cast out unclean spirits or demons or heal, are do any of thethings as the disciples. Which is to say, that there are certain parts of the Great Commission that we are to adhere to, and the other parts we are to over look, because it is not for us today in the church. Because the power of the Holy Spirit is not being poured out as it was in the 1st century, and we as believers don't have, nor can get this same power of the Holy Spirit to cast out demonas and unclean spirits as God has so told us, if we believe. Are you reading what I'm writing? Then if you are, you will understand what I'm asking.
The Bible was written and translated from the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. So what are you saying, that we should not pay any attention to the Bible as we have it today, and that we are reading now, but to what the orignial manuscript says? Well, we don't have the original Greek or the Hebrew or the Latin manuscripts, so something is seriously wrong, if we cannot believe what the church fathers have already put in print and translated from these manuscripts, and have told us they are the inspired word of God. There is no where in the Greek or Hebrew maniscripts that say the apostles gave out gifts and that the gifts are not for us today. Nor is there anywhere that says the power of the Holy Spirit is not for us today in the church.
Leon, are you understanding the points that are being discussed here? I speaking about the statements that are being made that are not in the Bible or in the irginal manuscripts, and are not scriptural, and neither one of you can prove that what already has been written is not for today's church. Tell me where you get this from?.. that's what I'm saying... you either believe the whole Bible as it has been given to us to believe, or you believe that it is incomplete and I would say to that... Houston, we've got a problem:glow:
Thank you for your defense. I do want to address the issue of Mark 16. That passage actually does exist in the Greek Text. There are some Greek texts that contain it and others that do not but they are in the Majority Text. Additionally I believe that also the Itala, the original Latin version which was written approx. 200AD predates the oldest Greek texts known., also contains all of Mark 16. The Latin Vulgate definitely contains it and it was written approx 400AD. I have not researched the Ante-Nicene Fathers to see if they quote from it but will shortly. The argument by some scholars surrounding Mark 16 may have some bias as Mark 16:16 makes it clear that Jesus makes water baptism a requirement for salvation. Additionally the Charismatics & Pentecostals have misinterpreted that passage as well pertaining to the "gifts". All one needs to do is study Greek and have a good grasp of the language to understand the passage. English does a terrible disservice to this passage.
BTW, Walter isn't beong treated as if he has made of a brand new doctrine, I'm questioning the proper teaching of scripture that I disagree with which I don't see as being the Word of God. The content of what is being taught is it the doctrine of Christ and what He has sadi, or the doctrine of what someone who has studied and is based on thier own religiious doctrine due to lack of understand and faith to believe, that they too, can have the same power that God has promise to all who believe.
Leon, you say that my biblical beliefs and what I have been taught are more charismatic . Is that the same as being a Berean? :yay:...
My thing is if the doctrine disagrees with what God says in His Word, then clearly it is in error and not of God. that's man doctrine...
I agree with you on this Walter. Because everything has been proven by the Dead sea Scrolls that were found, and what is written in the Bible as we have it today, has been proven to be correct and complete by the Greek and Latin translations. The Dead Sea Scrolls reads as the Hebrew text for the Old Testement. And Greek and the Latin translations of these manuscripts are the same fr the New Testement, so where oh, where is it that passages in Mark were added to these manuscripts by anyone after the Bible was translated and written?
Leon, I will eat you alive:eat:...:yay:... I'm a what, why, where, when, and why kinda person, so if you make statements to me, hopefully, you can give me indept answers. I ain't settling for a briefing, give me a direct
answers:yay:
Thanks Walter, and I look forward to you answers when you have time...get some sleep:zzzz:
The context of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was that Jesus was accused of being possessed by a demon, when in fact it was the Holy Spirit. ...the spirit of God (The Father) descended on Him like a dove and stayed. ... The spirit that "possessed" Jesus was the spirit of God.
...After the death of Christ, His Spirit enters us upon acceptance of Him. Different Spirit.
...That is the difference in which spirit gives what gifts.
...We have to keep a loving spirit as we discuss these things....we can all see where this one is headed if we are not careful.
I was responding to the opening post. I have not read the entire thread or everything others have said about it. But I am pretty sure Walter4u is not demon possessed. That is another topic "Can Christians be demon possessed?" I'd say no, but we can be oppressed or Vexed if we let it happen.
Iron sharpens Iron is the image of Believers disscussing differing views. We pull out that Sword of the Spirit and begin slashing each other to pieces, for fun. Warriors do that for practice with each other, but only to become better not tear each other down. Obviously, the Pharisees did want to kill Jesus. Jesus was said to be casting out demons by demons instead of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said He would send another comforter. Is that the other "Different" Holy Spirit you mentioned? If He sends another comforter, what was the first comforter it replaced. I guess you can name four Baptisms of the Holy Spirit.
1. Water Baptism for belivers who recieve the Holy Spirit upon conversion.
2. Jesus recieved the Spirit in the form of a Dove out of the sky.
3. Baptism in Fire, possibly tongues of fire, on the day of Penticost.
4. It was a mighty rushing wind.
Using little Hermanuticus' pattern method of interpretation we see a clear pattern here. Fire, Water and air. The three being one is another pattern. But Obviously one piece is missing, Earth.
Earth, Wind, Fire and Water make up some mystical foursquare union.
Earth is the Man, Man is made from the dust of the earth. When we pray thy kingdom come on earth I always include man as part of that earth to recieve God's kingdom. Woman was not made from dust but from man. While Man is a piece of dirt, woman was God's crowning final creation. After God created man He said it was good. But after he created woman He said it was very good.
We can have fun with this. I know I do. But it cannot or should not divide us as Christians. The Gospel of Salvation is what unites us, and should be.
