After having asked James in another thread how Reformed Theology views children in regards to salvation [to which he hasn't answered yet], I got to thinking.... are we really "totally depraved" when we are born? Did God form us in the womb as evil and sinful creatures, totally depraved in the womb, of which state we remain until at such time we learn whether we are of the creation of elect or created to be damned? Is this really a sound doctrine? Or can we say instead that we are born with a sinful nature that will at some point in life realize the need for a Saviour, or choose to continue to love our sinful lives and reject Christ instead?
David wrote in Psalm 127:3, "Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward." So children are a gift from the Lord. The fruit of the womb is His reward. Does God give 'evil' gifts? Nope. James tells us in 1:17 that, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." What does that say about children being a gift from the Lord? Does God create the totally depraved and evil soul of every child born, as a good gift and reward? As a mother, I would have to say no. Not once did it enter my mind when my children were born that they were evil, totally depraved, beings, created and born that way. They were wonderfully created, beginning life in innocence to good and evil, having the knowledge of neither.
We read in Deuteronomy 1:39, "Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." There is a verse, Romans 9:11, that RT's use in 'proving' that God can hate, but in this case we see again that children, even from before birth, have no knowledge of good and evil; "(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)" If, as RT's demand, we are totally depraved from birth [or eternity], and Scripture tells us that children and those in the womb have no knowledge of good and evil, how can they begin life as evil, corrupt and totally depraved beings, knowing nothing but evil, and continue as such until they are visibly elect or burning in hell through no will of their own? Furthermore, let's see what Jesus said about children in Matthew 18:1-6...
At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Children have such admirable qualities of trust, humility, and compassion. And Jesus encourages us to become like them. If they were born as totally depraved, corrupt little evil beings, do you really Jesus would encourage us to become like them? And what does Jesus mean when He says, "whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea."? Isn't He talking about causing a child to sin? He finds this so offensive that it would be better one drown in the bottom of the ocean. So again, my question is - are we born in totally depravity, knowing and living nothing but how to live evil, sinful lives; corrupt from the moment we take our first breath?
James, thanks for the Scripture on depravity, now how about some Scripture on Total depravity ---- like so totally depraved than man cannot respond to God with the Holy Spirit working on his heart and mind.....Yes, how about a Scripture concerning that please?
"man cannot respond with the Holy Spirit working on his heart"?
This is your latest trick?
"Total Depravity: Although fallen persons are capable of externally good acts (acts that are good for society), they cannot do anything really good, i.e., pleasing to God (Rom. 8:8). God, however, looks on the heart. And from his ultimate standpoint, fallen man has no goodness, in thought, word, or deed. He is therefore incapable of contributing anything to his salvation."
John Frame
Fallen man WILL NOT repent or trust in Jesus, UNLESS the Holy Spirit enters them and makes them come alive spiritually.
You will of course not be able to find where I EVER said that fallen man cannot respond when the Holy Spirit has made them born again.
We have PhillipJohn who is a full on Pelagian. He believes you ARE your own savior. according to him fallen man HAS the ability to same themselves, they just need to believe.
Then we have your view which is semi-pelaigianism. You think it is a joint effort and you are kind of a co-savior with Jesus, because Jesus died on the cross, and then you do your part by repenting and believing. This is the most common view today.
I don't see that in Scripture. I understand we naturally think that way, and that IS what Arminianism has going for it, that, and American culture.
Jesus told Nicodemus that fallen man cannot see, or enter the Kingdom of God UNLESS the Holy Spirit enters them and makes them born again.
So, I see EVERY BIT of our salvation, to be from God.
Jesus said you can't see it or enter it....
Paul said that God gives repentance.
That God gives faith.
That God takes a TOTALLY spiritually dead man, and Makes them come alive spiritually.
WHEN the Holy Spirit does this, THEN that person NATURALLY wants to repent and believe, and they do.
Notice what Jesus says here:
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Now, Jesus does not say, "You don't believe in me, because you decided not to" Or, "You don't believe in me because you have not used your free will properly."
Jesus told those people that they did not believe in Him because they were NOT of His sheep.
The apostle Paul said that fallen, natural man CANNOT understand the things of God:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Notice there is no supposed free will in what Jesus or Paul says.
You believe salvation is part from God, by Jesus dying on the cross and then your free will decision. But Jesus says it was NONE of your part, and ALL of God:
John 6:63-65 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
The SPIRIT GIVES spiritual life, and the flesh is NO HELP AT ALL.
I'll take your lack of Scripture as a admission your position is not found in Scripture.
I am not sure where you get this "co-savior" stuff, opps I stand corrected; mongerism.com....right?
Since when does it make you co-anything when another does all the work and offers the benefit of that work to you as a unmerited gift and you merely accept. Saying you are a co-worker cause you accepted a gift is the crazy talk of the indoctrinated.
James wrote - "And once again, I must say that the doctrine of Total depravity or total inability, does NOT mean that fallen man is as wicked as he or she could possibly be. It means that The Fall, EFFECTED EVERY PART OF MAN INCLUDING HIS WILL. So, that fallen mankind is UNABLE to choose to repent and trust in Jesus."
Perhaps then you can explain what Jesus meant when he said we need to become as little children.
And once again, I've already noted and acknowledged that we are all born with a sinful nature. This is what your verses are saying. And having children does prove this. But that is not my argument. What having children does not prove, is that they are so totally depraved from birth that they cannot or do not have the ability to trust in Jesus or respond to His name. I provided a couple verses that say children, before they are born, have "no knowledge of good and evil". Before the fall, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil either. Do you think children have this knowledge at birth? Just because children, by their sinful nature need to be taught what is good, does not prove that they are totally depraved from birth. They don't even understand evil. Not only do you need to teach them what is good, but when they do something that is wrong, you need to teach them why it is wrong.
It's not a trick, James. I'd like to know the answer as well. And the question has nothing to do with attributing to one's own salvation. The Cross is the only answer to salvation. None of us deny that. What it does have to do with, is man capable of responding to the Holy Spirit in the negative?
James wrote - "WHEN the Holy Spirit does this, THEN that person NATURALLY wants to repent and believe, and they do."
This is not always true, therefore the question... Some refuse the Holy Spirit. Your theology can't accept that fact because your theology has no room for man choosing to accept Christ much less to deny Christ when prompted by the Holy Spirit.
The Salvation of the �Little Ones�: Do Infants who Die Go to Heaven?
Thursday, July 16, 2009
by R. Albert Mohler, Jr. and Daniel L. Akin
The death of an infant or young child is profoundly heartbreaking � perhaps the greatest grief a parent is called to bear. For Christian parents, there is the sure knowledge that our sovereign and merciful God is in control, but there is also a pressing question: Is our baby in heaven?
This is a natural and unavoidable question, calling for our most careful and faithful biblical study and theological reflection. The unspeakable anguish of a parent’s heart demands our honest and humble searching of the Scriptures.
Some are quick to answer this question out of sentimentality. Of course infants go to heaven, they argue, for how could God refuse a precious little one? The Universalist has a quick answer, for he believes that everyone will go to heaven. Some persons may simply suggest that elect infants go to heaven, while the non-elect do not, and must suffer endless punishment. Each of these easy answers is unsatisfactory.
Mere sentimentalism ignores the Bible’s teaching which bears on the issue. We have no right to establish doctrine on the basis of what we hope may be true. We must draw our answers from what the Bible reveals to be true.
Universalism is an unbiblical heresy. The Bible clearly teaches that we are born in sin and that God will not tolerate sinners. God has made one absolute and definitive provision for our salvation through the substitutionary atonement accomplished by Jesus Christ our Lord. Salvation comes to those who believe on His name and confess him as Savior. The Bible teaches a dual destiny for the human race. The redeemed � those who are in Christ � will be raised to eternal life with the Father in Heaven. Those who have not believed in Christ and confessed Him as Lord will suffer eternal punishment in the fires of Hell. Universalism is a dangerous and unbiblical teaching. It offers a false promise and denies the Gospel.
The Bible reveals that we are born marked by original sin, and thus we cannot claim that infants are born in a state of innocence. Any biblical answer to the question of infant salvation must start from the understanding that infants are born with a sin nature.
The shifting of the focus to election actually avoids answering the question. We must do better, and look more closely at the issues at stake.
Throughout the centuries, the church has offered several different answers to this question. In the early church, Ambrose believed that baptized infants went to heaven, while unbaptized infants did not, though they received immunity from the pains of hell. His first error was believing in infant baptism, and thus in baptismal regeneration. Baptism does not save, and it is reserved for believers � not for infants. His second error was his indulgence in speculation. Scripture does not teach such a half-way position which denies infants admission to heaven, but saves them from the peril of hell. Augustine, the great theologian of the fourth century, basically agreed with Ambrose, and shared his understanding of infant baptism.
Others have taught that infants will have an opportunity to come to Christ after death. This position was held by Gregory of Nyssa, and is growing among many contemporary theologians, who claim that all, regardless of age, will have a post-mortem opportunity to confess Christ as Savior. The problem with this position is that Scripture teaches no such post-mortem opportunity. It is a figment of a theologian’s imagination, and must be rejected.
Those who divide infants into the elect and non-elect seek to affirm the clear and undeniable doctrine of divine election. The Bible teaches that God elects persons to salvation from eternity, and that our salvation is all of grace. At first glance, this position appears impregnable in relation to the issue of infant salvation � a simple statement of the obvious. A second glance, however, reveals a significant evasion. What if all who die in infancy are among the elect? Do we have a biblical basis for believing that all persons who die in infancy are among the elect?
We believe that Scripture does indeed teach that all persons who die in infancy are among the elect. This must not be based only in our hope that it is true, but in a careful reading of the Bible. We start with the biblical affirmations we have noted already. First, the Bible reveals that we are �brought forth in iniquity,�(1) and thus bear the stain of original sin from the moment of our conception. Thus, we face squarely the sin problem. Second, we acknowledge that God is absolutely sovereign in salvation. We do not deserve salvation, and can do nothing to earn our salvation, and thus it is all of grace. Further we understand that our salvation is established by God’s election of sinners to salvation through Christ. Third, we affirm that Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ is the sole and sufficient Savior, and that salvation comes only on the basis of His blood atonement. Fourth, we affirm that the Bible teaches a dual eternal destiny � the redeemed to Heaven, the unredeemed to Hell.
What, then is our basis for claiming that all those who die in infancy are among the elect? First, the Bible teaches that we are to be judged on the basis of our deeds committed �in the body.�(2) That is, we will face the judgment seat of Christ and be judged, not on the basis of original sin, but for our sins committed during our own lifetimes. Each will answer �according to what he has done,�(3) and not for the sin of Adam. The imputation of Adam’s sin and guilt explains our inability to respond to God without regeneration, but the Bible does not teach that we will answer for Adam’s sin. We will answer for our own. But what about infants? Have those who die in infancy committed such sins in the body? We believe not.
One biblical text is particularly helpful at this point. After the children of Israel rebelled against God in the wilderness, God sentenced that generation to die in the wilderness after forty years of wandering. �Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land which I swore to give your fathers.�(4) But this was not all. God specifically exempted young children and infants from this sentence, and even explained why He did so: �Moreover, your little ones who you said would become prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good and evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.�(5) The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who �have no knowledge of good or evil� because of their age. These �little ones� would inherit the Promised Land, and would not be judged on the basis of their fathers’ sins.
We believe that this passage bears directly on the issue of infant salvation, and that the accomplished work of Christ has removed the stain of original sin from those who die in infancy. Knowing neither good nor evil, these young children are incapable of committing sins in the body � are not yet moral agents � and die secure in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John Newton, the great minister who wrote the hymn Amazing Grace was certain of this truth. He wrote to close friends who had lost a young child: �I hope you are both well reconciled to the death of your child. I cannot be sorry for the death of infants. How many storms do they escape! Nor can I doubt, in my private judgment, that they are included in the election of grace.�(6) The great Princeton theologians Charles Hodge and B. B. Warfield held the same position.
One of the most eloquent and powerful expressions of this understanding of infant salvation came from the heart of Charles Spurgeon. Preaching to his own congregation, Spurgeon consoled grieving par
ents: �Now, let every mother and father here present know assuredly that it is well with the child, if God hath taken it away from you in its infant days.�(7) Spurgeon turned this conviction into an evangelistic call. �Many of you are parents who have children in heaven. Is it not a desirable thing that you should go there, too? He continued: �Mother, unconverted mother, from the battlements of heaven your child beckons you to Paradise. Father, ungodly, impenitent father, the little eyes that once looked joyously on you, look down upon you now, and the lips which scarcely learned to call you father, ere they were sealed by the silence of death, may be heard as with a still small voice, saying to you this morning, ‘Father, must we be forever divided by the great gulf which no man can pass?’ Doth not nature itself put a sort of longing in your soul that you may be bound in the bundle of life with your own children?�
Jesus instructed his disciples that they should �Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these.�(8) We believe that our Lord graciously and freely received all those who die in infancy � not on the basis of their innocence or worthiness � but by his grace, made theirs through the atonement He purchased on the cross.
When we look into the grave of one of these little ones, we do not place our hope and trust in the false promises of an unbiblical theology, in the instability of sentimentalism, in the cold analysis of human logic, nor in the cowardly refuge of ambiguity.
We place our faith in Christ, and trust Him to be faithful to his Word. We claim the promises of the Scriptures and the assurance of the grace of our Lord. We know that heaven will be filled with those who never grew to maturity on earth, but in heaven will greet us completed in Christ. Let us resolve by grace to meet them there.
Endnotes:
Psalm 51:5. All biblical citations are from the New American Standard Bible.
2 Corinthians 5:10
Ibid.
Deuteronomy 1:35
Deuteronomy 1:39
John Newton, �Letter IX,� The Works of John Newton (London, 1820), p. 182.
Charles H. Spurgeon, �Infant Salvation� A sermon preached September 29, 1861. Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit (London, 1861), p. 505.
Mark 10:14
R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is President and Professor of Christian Theology.
Daniel L. Akin is Vice President for Academic Administration, Dean of the School of Theology, and Associate Professor of Christian Theology.
I just posted an article on if infants go to Heaven when they die.
I just wanted to say what I thought on this subject.
First off, we don't have any clear teaching on this in Scripture.
From the Reading the bible, and looking at what it says about the Character of God, I tend to believe that children who die in the womb, or in infancy, go to heaven.
Why? Well, because I see a very strong tendency for God to save people who are NOT the big shots in this world. God seems to save very few of the rich and famous. He seems to save a much higher percentage of the people the world looks down on.
I do know that John Calvin believed that all babies who died in the womb or in infancy went immediately to be with God in Heaven. He based his arguments on the character of God.
So, I can't make a doctrine out of it, but based upon the information we do have, I tend to think that these infants are in heaven.
We already know the Holy Spirit can enter a baby in their mothers womb. We DO have that information in Scripture.
So, anyways, those are my thoughts on that subject.....
Somehow I figured I'd be reading an article. :laugh:
I do think it's a stretch though to believe that babies who die before birth are in heaven based upon them being unconditional elect, as if they are the only babies who die in the womb.
The writer mentions, "The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who �have no knowledge of good or evil� because of their age."
So how does this apply to young children? If God exempts them from judgment based upon their having no knowledge of good and evil, are they truly born "totally depraved" as defined by Reformed Theology?
GOD HAS PROMISED IN JEREMIAH 29:13: YOU WILL FIND ME WHEN YOU SEEK ME WITH **ALL YOUR HEART**.�:angel:
John 14:23: Jesus says, �If anyone loves Me, he will obey My teaching, My Father will love him, and We will make Our home with him.� Matthew 28:19.20� Jesus commands, �Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to *OBEY EVERYTHING I have commanded you!� {See I John 2:3-5}
So let us read God's Word daily {Acts 17:11} and then *DO WHAT IT SAYS*! {James 1:22,25}
Acts 17:11: �The Bereans were of noble character, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures *EVERY DAY*!�:rolleyes:
James 1:22,25: �Do not merely listen to the Word. *DO WHAT IT SAYS*!... and he who continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but *DOING IT*�will be blessed in what he does.:rolleyes:
Matthew 16:27; Jesus says, �The Son of Man is going to come in **HIS FATHER'S GLORY WITH HIS ANGELS** {See Matt 24:30,31 & 2 Thess 1:6-10}, and *THEN* He will reward each person according to what he has done.� Revelation 22:12: Jesus says, �Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with Me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done!� {When Jesus comes in His Father's glory with His angels}
2 Corinthians 5:10: For we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, {When Jesus comes in His Father's glory with His angels} whether good or bad.�
Ephesians 2:8-10: It is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is NOT from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. So Salvation is the ***FREE GIFT*** of God's grace and good works can only be performed by the saved.
Daniel 12:3: �Those who impart wisdom will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever!�
Matthew 5:14,16: Jesus says, �You are the LIGHT of the world...Let your LIGHT shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
I Corinthians 3:6-9: Paul says, �The Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed. Apollos watered it, but God made it grow... The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers!�
So let our lights *SHINE* with the many gifts God has given us and we can have a REVIVAL with the hope of countless eternal rewards for faithful and loving service.
I Corinthians 1:7: For �You do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be *REVEALED*!�:angel:
