God purposed to redeem a certain people and not others 1Chr 17:20-21; Mat 22:14; 1Pet 2:8-9 [see �God elects individuals to salvation�/God elects individuals to condemnation�]
It is for these in particular that Christ gave his life
Isa 53:10-11; Mat 1:21; John 6:35-40; John 10:3-4, 11, 14-15; Act 20:28; Eph 5:25 [we are commanded to love our wives in the same way that Christ loved the church and gave himself for it; therefore, if Christ loved and gave himself for all people in the same way, we are commanded to love all women in the same way that we love our wives]; Heb 2:17; Heb 9:15
It is for these in particular that Christ intercedes
John 17:1-2; John 17:6-12; John 17:20-21, 24-26; Rom 8:34
The people for whom Christ intercedes are the same as the people for whom he offered himself up as a sacrifice
Heb 7:24-27; Heb 9:12 [note context, in which entering into the holy place is explicitly for the purpose of intercession], 24-28 [For a fuller understanding of the indissoluble connection between sacrifice and intercession, read Hebrews chapters 7-10]
The atonement of Christ is effective
To justify
Isa 53:11 [the single effective cause of justification in view here is the bearing of iniquities; all whose iniquities Christ bore must be justified]; Rom 8:34 [the argument here is that the fact of Christ's death, resurrection, and intercession is in itself an incontrovertibly effective reason for non-condemnation; if this verse is true, then no one for whom Christ died and was raised to intercede may be condemned]
To redeem and cleanse from sins
Eph 5:25-27; Titus 2:14
To propitiate the Father
1John 2:2 [�propitiation� means �the turning away or appeasement of wrath�; therefore, by definition, the Father has no more wrath against those whose sins have been propitiated]; 1John 4:10
To raise to new life
2Cor 5:14-15 [the argument is a simple �if/then� proposition: �if� Christ died for someone, �then,� with no other conditions, that person died with him and was raised again]; 1Pet 3:18
[See also, �Jesus' death purchased for his people a new heart; � faith; � repentance�. Jesus died in order to establish the New Covenant (Mat. 26:26-29, etc.); the New Covenant promised faith, repentance and knowledge of God (Jer. 31:33-34, Ez. 36:26-27, etc.); therefore, Jesus died in order to provide faith, repentance, and knowledge of God, as the fulfillment of a unilateral promise. This means that his death had a definite purpose which was intended for some and not others. His death effectively purchased faith; not all have faith; and so his death had an effective intent that was limited to certain persons.] Those whom God purposed to redeem include all who believe John 3:16
From every nation
Rev 5:9
From every class
Gal 3:28; 1Tim 2:1-6 [the first �all men� is explicitly tied to all classes of men, which gives warrant for understanding the second �all men� in the same way]
Therefore, Christ's saving work is commonly spoken of in terms of �all,� �world,� etc.
John 1:29; Titus 2:11-14 [in the context of �all men� is the delimiting concept of a peculiar people, zealous of good works]; Heb 2:9-10 [notice that the many sons whom Christ brings to glory gives a contextual delimiter to the term �every�]; 2Pet 3:9 [note that this desire is explicitly limited to �us� (Peter was writing to fellow-believers) in the context]; 1John 2:2 [propitiation means �appeasement of wrath�; either Jesus appeases God's wrath against all, and therefore hell (which is the place where God's wrath resides) is non-existent; or the �whole world� means something different than �every individual who ever lived�. See John 11:51-52, and �The word 'world' is often used in the sense of 'many,' or 'all of a set'�]
The word �all� is often used to indicate all of a set, or even many representatives of a set
Mat 10:22; 1Cor 6:12; 1Cor 15:22; Mat 2:3; John 4:29; Act 10:39; Act 17:21; Act 21:28; Act 26:4
Or, to indicate all �classes� or �nations,� not all individuals
Mat 5:11; Act 2:17; Act 10:12
The word �world� is often used in the sense of �many,� or �all of a set�
Luk 2:1-2; John 6:33; John 12:19; Act 19:27; Rom 1:8
Additional reasons that the atonement of Christ is not for all the sins of all people
God punishes people in hell, which would be unjust if their sins were atoned for
Mark 9:43-44
If one were to say, �their sins are atoned for, but that atonement is not applied because of unbelief,� he fails to realize that unbelief is likewise a sin
Heb 3:12 [�The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!� � John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ]
God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased]
The post started out, talking about who Jesus died for, and the answer is in who is called please, you wanna know who is called preach the gospel, the hearer is called, hello, You need a strap for some of the billy goats always wanting to butt the sheep.
James, I want to answer your question to me, but the thread is off to the next page, so I'll answer it in this thread.
You asked - "My question for you is, do you think that fallen mankind has the ability to come to God?"
Actually, yes. I was invited to a Christian coffee house before I was saved. When I walked through those doors, I was not saved. In fact I was stoned. I listened to some awesome testimonies from some awesome Jesus freaks. This was in 1971. I listened to some dudes who knew basically zilch about Scripture, but knew that God had saved them, healed them, delivered them. That Christ died for them.
James replies:
we agree that people can be saved and know nothing about what the Bible teaches outside of trusting in Jesus.
The apostle Paul says that "NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD", and you are telling me Paul is wrong because you were seeking for God.
You see my problem with that?
Lots of people hear the Gospel and they DON'T accept Jesus so, what made you different?
Now, I just posted a bunch of Scriptures on natural, fallen mankind. Do you think that those Scriptures did not apply to you?
Rom 3:9-12 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
You are telling me Paul is wrong, because YOU were seeking for God by walking into a coffee shop?
That Jesus loved us so much He died so that we could live and shed the wretched, messed up lives we were living. They were happy. Really happy. They were sincere and it showed. I wanted that for my life. According to you, I would have to be saved before I wanted that for my life, right?
James replies:
According to Jesus, you have to be born again, before you can see or enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus told Nicodemus that.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Now, you are saying Jesus is wrong too, because You say you had the ability to come to Jesus.
71 continues:
Before I could come to God in all humbleness, I would have to first be born-again, filled with the Holy Spirit, right? Is that how your theology works?
James replies:
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Are you saying Luke was wrong also? That Lydia, had free will, and she just decided to accept Jesus?
71 continues:
I KNOW when I was saved. It wasn't until after I fell on my face and begged God to forgive me for my sins, wanting nothing else but Jesus in my life.
James replies:
The Bible PLAINLY teaches, that NO ONE seeks for God, that NO ONE can come to Jesus UNLESS the Father draws them, and that fallen mankind's will is ENSLAVED TO SIN.
You are acting like you were just fine, and you just made a decision. WHY didn't you make that decision years ago????
Why did you SUDDENLY decide to accept Jesus???
The Bible Says that the Holy Spirit entered you and made you into a new creature. THAT.....is when and WHY you accepted Jesus.
71 continues:
May 12, 1971, I became a born-again Jesus Freak. I crawled to God. In my messed up, stoned state, I came to Jesus. And He was waiting. God always gives us a way.
James replies:
God does MUCH MORE than THAT!
God GIVES repentance:
2Ti 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
And faith:
Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Was it your will that you accepted Jesus???
Joh 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
If you were left to you own will, you would be lost and on your way to Hell
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. .
I ask you again, was it YOUR will and YOUR decision that saved you??
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
You keep saying it was YOU that decided to accept Jesus, as if you were not born with a will enslaved to sin. Jesus said NO ONE could come to Him, unless the Father grants it, and you say anyone can come!
John 6:63-65 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
I do not follow Calvin,nor do i believe the TULIP theory,for i believe that Grace can be resisted.
KJV:
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
LITV:
Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness is through Law, then Christ died without cause.
Youngs:
Gal 2:21 I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law--then Christ died in vain.
The Greek for the English Words 'Frustrate,Set aside,Make void'.
to do away with what has been laid down, set aside
Original Word: ἀθετέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: athete�
Phonetic Spelling: (ath-et-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I annul
Definition: I annul, make of no effect, set aside, ignore, slight; I break faith with.
114 athet�ō (literally, a-thetos, "un-place") � properly, do away with; reject what is already laid down; to set aside (disregard as spurious); nullify, make void; to break faith (Abbott-Smith); remove out of an appointed (proper) place, i.e. reject as invalid; refuse to respect (even "despise"); to cancel, disannul, abrogate (passive, "be set aside" because perceived to lack value); to disregard, pass over (refuse to acknowledge).
Word Origin
from athetos (without position or place); from alpha (as a neg. prefix) and tith�mi
Definition
to do away with what has been laid down, set aside
Yet with all of this being said,if Christ did not know from the Beginning who was believing,and who would betray Him,Then His being the Omniscient Son of GOD would be in question.
John 6:64 But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were, the ones not believing, and who was the one betraying Him.
John 6:65 And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me except it is given to him from My Father.
The Greek for the English word beginning:
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arch�
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Short Definition: ruler, beginning
Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.
746 arxḗ � properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").
Christ had full understanding of what was going on around Him,yet He trusted Himself to the Fathers will for eveything.
