You obviously are ignorant as to the details of the Synod of Dort.
This is when and where the five points were brought up
James replies:
The followers of Arminius FIRST brought up their five points BEFORE that and it was called The Remonstrance.
two continues:
and those who were in agreement with the writings if Calvin first began to kill and persecute fellow Protestants for disagreeing with the writings of Calvin.
James replies:
LOL! There were no "writings of Calvin"! You need to get this straight. the protestant churches at that time, UNLIKE TODAY, had a LOT of real scholars, and if you could NOT PROVE your doctrine from Scripture AND the early church fathers, you were ignored.
Calvin was greatly respected but so was Luther and Zwingly and Knox, etc. The idea of a Re-formation was to bring back what the early church originally believed.
two continues:
To say that there were no Protestants before Calvinism is just plain ludicrous.
James replies:
I never said that.
Two continues:
James, you are right about one thing. If I lived back then; my very life would be in danger from those who think killing me would be doing God a favor. These are the very people you consider your mentors and elevate practically to Sainthood!
Good grief man, can't you see that!..?
James replies:
1. ALL true Christians are called Saints. Calvin and Luther and all the Reformers were Christians, who were not perfect,and lived in very trying times.
2. I can see how a modern Christian like yourself, who ignores church history, and thinks your private religious hunches are infallible, can look at someone like me who admires and is THANKFUL that God has raised up great men of genius to expound on the Christian faith, and think, "this guy worships Calvin." If you think that, just keep adding to the list. There is Polycarp, and augustine, and Bucer, and Knox, etc, etc.
3. Yes, TwoSparrows since Arminianism was formally declared a heresy by ALL the churches, if you lived in those countries during that time, and you PUBLICLY TAUGHT Arminianism, you could be thrown in jail, and if you refused to recant you would probably have been put to death.
Like I said before, the idea of tolerance came out of the Reformation, because Christians saw all this killing, and they decided it was not what God would have them do.
In case you are getting info from Wickedpedia, or some Arminian website, I suggest you check out this link:
http://www.theopedia.com/Synod_of_Dort
If you are looking for a good book on this, the best I have ever read is Kenneth Scott Latourette's
History of the Christian religion.
It is a two volume set, and you can buy the second volume which starts at the year 1500. you can get it in paperback for cheap and it is excellent.
You are loosing your credibility, Calvin was a prolific writer, had he not been, Calvinism probably would not exist. In fact you just recently posted a article written by Calvin, and you say there are no writings of Calvin. :goofball:
Btw, I get little if no material on Calvinism from the internet because I am not sure which sites to trust. I have a small library of reference books from which I have gleaned my information on Calvinism, some of which are written or edited by "Calvinists"
As for your statement on the five points : Who wrote them first and who wrote theirs to combat the others is really irrelevant to me as it makes no difference in the outcome. However, I will look it up and post the answer.
You are loosing your credibility, Calvin was a prolific writer, had he not been, Calvinism probably would not exist.
James replies:
If John Calvin had not been a prolific writer, then the five points of doctrine known as Calvinism would not exist.
What is NOW nicknamed Calvinism, existed BEFORE John Calvin.
Augustine for example wrote about predestination is greater detail than Calvin wrote, and he wrote in 400AD.
1. Every SINGLE one of the five points nicknamed Calvinism were believed by some Christians Throughout church history.
I posted QUOTES by the early church fathers saying specifically that Jesus died for the elect and NOT for everyone who ever lived.
I can do the same for the other four points.
2. Luther, who came right before Calvin, said the SAME THING!
He wrote the book "the bondage of the will" which talks about fallen mankinds UTTER inability to come to Christ. I just posted on this the other day!
3. Calvin writing his institutes was not magic! OTHER CHRISTIANS had to check scripture and think about it and AGREE. When a painting, or piece of music, or anything, is declared great for a LONG period of time, by many people, over and over, THEN it is declared GREAT.
Luther wrote so much that a lot of what He wrote has never been translated from German to this day.
While I agree that Calvin was an amazing person, the five points were believed long before he was born.
I am not saying God does not use other people present and past to help us learn. What I am saying is that it appears you don't realize the ultimate teacher is the Holy Spirit and that the ultimate writings are the Scripture. That is where we go FIRST for the truth, the rest is just commentary .
I am not saying God does not use other people present and past to help us learn. What I am saying is that it appears you don't realize the ultimate teacher is the Holy Spirit and that the ultimate writings are the Scripture. That is where we go FIRST for the truth, the rest is just commentary .
James replies:
Those "ultimate writings" you speak of TELL US that God has given us teachers, and elders, and that the body of Christ on Earth IS the church. We are to be accountable and serving members of the local church. The Bible also tells us in proverbs that there is wisdom in many counselors.
As far as the Holy Spirit teaching us.....That is ONE verse, and I think that applies only to Moral issues. When The Holy Spirit makes us alive, our eyes are opened, we have a new hatred of our own sin. We did not have that before.
And, that is why almost all Christians agree on basic Christian living. The Holy Spirit does guide us into all truth in that area.
The Problem is that many Fanatics, and a LOT of modern American Christians USE that verse to believe that their private religious hunches are infallible.
That is another reason they never want to admit they are wrong about interpreting a verse, is because they think they would be admitting the Holy Spirit was wrong.
I have been wrong about interpreting the Bible, and I have no problem saying so, because I....was wrong.
I don't believe when I open the pages of the Bible that the Holy Spirit gives me the correct interpretation of every word I am reading.
If you think it through how in the world could the Holy Spirit be giving us all the correct interpretation of each verse, when we all disagree so much?
What we DO agree on is basic Christian living, living a holy life.
THAT....is what the Holy Spirit has opened our eyes about.
James it is not in thinking, not ever that any person's eyes are open to the truth it has been and still is and always will be that divine truth is of the heart or spirit of man , revealed, not interpreted by the Holy Spirit.
Those that continually use that word interpretation are very much given to just that, carnally approaching truth and never walking in the light of the word.
"The Holy Spirit does guide us into all truth...."
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twosparrows replies:
That one statement pretty much explains our differences, for I believe the Holy Spirit guides us into ALL truth. However I still am a poor follower at times, other times I don't see so good, and still other times hard of hearing. This striving to follow, see and hear makes me accomplishes God's will in my life, in that it increases my desire for a closer relationship and more dependence on Him.
