Belief occurs immediately AFTER the Holy Spirit regenerates a person.
I know that the Arminian view has man with a free will that has the ability to believe.
You think man believes and then makes himself born again by believing.
The Bible says that Opposite.
Jesus told Nicodemus that natural man can NOT see or understand the Kingdom of God UNLESS they are FIRST born again.
This order of first being made into a new Creature by God, and THEN believing and obeying is all through Scripture.
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...THEN you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even WHEN WE WERE DEAD in transgressions � it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:4-5
And the reason Arminians REJECT these Scriptures and others is because they want to PRETEND that fallen mankind is not so bad, and has a perfectly free will.
The Arminian view is a god who enables man to save himself.
James the bible does not say what you proclaim what you said in this last response anywhere, but it does give acct. after to the contrary of what you proclaim.
It is time for you, to act as a true christian would and that is to repent of this total lie and turn unto the lord wholeheartedly, there are plenty of people here that would be glad to help you, it matters not all the men you hold in high esteem in reformed theology, there are under a greater condemnation than your self.
Come to Jesus and lose your life and all the opinion's of calvinism and he will wash you and open your eyes to the truth and you will know a freedom like never before and then you can become one that proclaims the gospel in faith to all men, nothing doubting.
James wrote - "Belief occurs immediately AFTER the Holy Spirit regenerates a person. I know that the Arminian view has man with a free will that has the ability to believe. You think man believes and then makes himself born again by believing.
Excuse me? Where did I ever say that man "MAKES HIMSELF" born again by believing? We are born again because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross. He died so we could live. If we believe this, we will live [not perish, but have eternal life]. That is born again.
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:15,16,18
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. - John 20:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. - Acts 16:31
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. - 1 John 3:23
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. - 1 John 5:13
Belief comes first, James. Nowhere in Scripture does one read the Holy Spirit will regenerate you and THEN you will believe. Jesus continually asked people if they believed. Scripture does not say Jesus told people to be regenerated so they could or can believe. He never said, "regenerate and believe that your sins may be forgiven". Over and over in Scripture, you see believe, followed by the promise of eternal life. The word regenerate isn't even in the Bible.
James wrote - "The Bible says that Opposite. Jesus told Nicodemus that natural man can NOT see or understand the Kingdom of God UNLESS they are FIRST born again."
And born again is a result of belief in Christ and His work on the Cross. Jesus never said anything to Nicodemus about having to have the Holy Spirit before he could believe or that he had to be regenerated before he could believe.
James wrote - "This order of first being made into a new Creature by God, and THEN believing and obeying is all through Scripture."
Sure, James. Don't know where you get your information, but Paul told us that if any man BE "IN CHRIST", he is a new creature.
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. - 2 Corinthians 5:13
You must be "in Christ" to be a new creature. You don't become a new creature before you are "in Christ". And belief comes before you can be a new creature in Christ, because you have to believe in Christ in order to become anything in Christ... born-again, new creature, child of God, Bride, Church.
James wrote - "And the reason Arminians REJECT these Scriptures and others is because they want to PRETEND that fallen mankind is not so bad, and has a perfectly free will. The Arminian view is a god who enables man to save himself. The Calvinist view is a God who saves."
I don't know how many times I have to tell you that I am not an Arminian. So why do you continue to compare me to one? Is it to insult? Of your own admission, you align yourself with Calvin [Reformed]. I align myself only to Christ and the written Word of God. Not man. Not books written by man. I own a Bible. That's it. And I reject no Scripture. I don't have to force the simplest of Scripture to fit my belief. I don't have to say what it "really doesn't mean" by saying the definitions of words are anything but what they really mean in order to support my belief. So get off your pedestal of Calvanism and stop pointing your Reformed finger at me, making accusations that are lies.
Accuse not a servant unto his master, lest he curse thee, and thou be found guilty. - Proverbs 30:10
Belief comes first, James. Nowhere in Scripture does one read the Holy Spirit will regenerate you and THEN you will believe.
James replies:
71, I would like you to read the following verses, being very focused on what comes first......
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14
Notice, God puts His Holy Spirit in a person, and THEN.....
That person knows God.
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions � it is by grace you have been saved.
Ephesians 2:4-5
Notice is does not say, "by your decision you have been saved."
He made us alive, WHEN? When were were spiritually DEAD.
THEN we believed.
�It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.� (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father.�
John 6:63-65
Now, Jesus JUST SAID....."it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh is of no avail."
The Holy Spirit MUST make us alive FIRST. The flesh is of no avail,according to Jesus. And then Jesus said, "THIS IS WHY, I told you that NO ONE CAN come to me UNLESS it is GRANTED by the Father."
So much for free will! Now, 71, I have already had two people on this group read that verse and turn right around and tell me
"No! ANYONE CAN, SEE THE BIBLE SAYS "WHOSOEVER".
Will you be the third person to deny what Jesus just said???
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.
1 John 5:1
HAS BEEN......PAST TENSE.
If salvation is the implantation of a new, infinite life in the soul, it must be a work of God. Self-caused effects can never rise above the character or qualities of their cause. "Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to Spirit," Jesus told Nicodemus. This saving grace cannot be caused by the creature, it can only come from God.
John Hannah from To God be the Glory (pg. 34-5)
And speaking of Jesus teaching Nicodemus....
This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.
71 continues:
Jesus continually asked people if they believed.
James replies:
People can only be saved by believing in Him, so that would make sense.
71 continues:
Scripture does not say Jesus told people to be regenerated so they could or can believe. He never said, "regenerate and believe that your sins may be forgiven".
James replies:
I have just given several Scriptures, including direct statements by Jesus that a person MUST be born again FIRST, and ONLY THEN can they believe, or see the kingdom of God, or enter it.
71 continues:
Over and over in Scripture, you see believe, followed by the promise of eternal life. The word regenerate isn't even in the Bible.
James replies:
Regeneration is just a term that means born again, or made alive spiritually by God. Please consider the verses in this post, and ask which comes first, the Holy Spirit making a dead person come alive, OR a decision to believe made by the person.
*** This is what Calvin's Theology and Interpretation of Scripture Teaches ??? Its no wonder that the Christians here attack the Doctrine of Calvin...jus sayin...xo
James wrote - "71, I would like you to read the following verses, being very focused on what comes first......
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14
Notice, God puts His Holy Spirit in a person, and THEN..... That person knows God."
C'mon James. You gotta do better than that. Ezekiel 37:14 is in reference to the vision Ezekiel received concerning "the whole house of Israel". You can't just lift a verse out of somewhere because it says God puts His Spirit in you and causes you to live and wa-la! you've got a doctrine saying that you must be born-again, filled with the Spirit, before you can believe.
James wrote - "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions � it is by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5
Notice is does not say, "by your decision you have been saved." He made us alive, WHEN? When were were spiritually DEAD.
THEN we believed."
This goes back to being a new creature BEFORE being "in Christ". You can't be alive "with Christ" until you believe in Christ, anymore than you can be a new creature before you are "in Christ". And when Christ saves anyone, they are dead in their transgressions. We are all dead in our sin and remain so until we accept the Lord.
James wrote - "�It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.� (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father.� John 6:63-65 Now, Jesus JUST SAID....."it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh is of no avail." The Holy Spirit MUST make us alive FIRST. The flesh is of no avail,according to Jesus. And then Jesus said, "THIS IS WHY, I told you that NO ONE CAN come to me UNLESS it is GRANTED by the Father.""
Who is Jesus talking to here, James? You can't just keep lifting verses off pages and make a doctrine out of them, exclusive to all else, without looking at the context of what is being spoken. This has to do with those disciples who left and decided to not walk with Jesus anymore. Christ knew the 12 He would have, the Father granted those 12 to Him. He also knew who would betray Him. "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
James wrote - "So much for free will! Now, 71, I have already had two people on this group read that verse and turn right around and tell me "No! ANYONE CAN, SEE THE BIBLE SAYS "WHOSOEVER". Will you be the third person to deny what Jesus just said???"
Gotta love it. You present some Scriptures, tell me what they mean according to Reformed Theology, and then ask me if I'm going to deny what Jesus just said. Even saying I'd be the third person. What do you do? Keep score on those who do not agree with you? The Scriptures you provide are sometimes out of context, sometimes not even referring to the Church, and you always seem to make them exclusive of all else.
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? - Luke 11:13
According to you James, we can't even approach the Holy Spirit until first He dwells within us. No need to ask for the receiving of the Holy Spirit if He's already been forced upon us by God and made us alive before we can ask the Father to give Him to us.
James wrote - "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. 1 John 5:1 HAS BEEN......PAST TENSE."
Is that your argument? Has been, past tense? In your world, you receive before you ask. You are a Christian BECAUSE you believe. Because I BELIEVE, I am a Christian. The above verse does not prove that you are born of God before you believe that Jesus is the Christ. My translation reads, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:" No matter which translation you use, it's a present tense verse meaning simply that if you believe Jesus is the Christ, you are born of God.
James wrote - "This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God."
That is true. You will not get into the kingdom of God unless you are born again, but nowhere does it say that you must be born-again before you can believe.
James wrote - "I have just given several Scriptures, including direct statements by Jesus that a person MUST be born again FIRST, and ONLY THEN can they believe, or see the kingdom of God, or enter it."
None of the verses you gave say you must be born-again before you believe, or that you can only believe if you are born-again. Jesus did say you must be born again before you can enter the kingdom of Heaven, as I stated above. Other than that, you are adding to that verse.
