I have tried very hard, searching the scriptures to prove your doctrines as truth. However, such scripture has eluded me.
This is a very simple request.
Can you provide me with 4 scriptures and 4 scriptures only?
One each for the first 4 points of reformed doctrine.
1) Total Depravity ~ Need a scripture that says plainly man lost the ability to choose as a result of the fall. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
2) Unconditional Election ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says God chooses from all men unconditionally a few to save. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
3) Limited Atonement ~ Need a scripture that plainly says Christ's Atonement on the cross only covers a few, not the whole world. ( Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
4) Irresistible Grace ~ Need a Scripture that plainly says no man can resist the Grace of God. (Plainly, no fancy logic interpretations)
*If you all cannot provide one plain straight forward scripture for each point, then it is quite plain you have gone beyond Scripture ....wouldn't you agree?
James wrote - "Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen."
Are you saying the many who are called are those sinners that God created to live without ever having the benefit or offering of His Mercy?
James replies:
Yes. Many are called to repent and trust in Jesus, and this is the outward call of the gospel. inside that group are the ones the Holy Spirit gives an inward call, and they WILL respond and repent and trust in Jesus.
71 continues:
On Limited Atonement -
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. -1 Timothy 2:3-6
God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all. Or does "all" not mean all in your Bible?
James replies:
The word "all" hardly ever means "everyone who ever lived".
It can mean all of a kind, or all of a set.
The verse you just gave came from a letter written to Timothy who is a Christian. God desires that ALL his chosen people, will be saved.
James wrote - "(Christ died for His sheep, NOT the goats.) {The goats (unbelievers) are still in their sins}"
71 said:
Again, Christ Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for ALL. And hey, weren't we all "goats" at one time? Unbelievers still in our sin before accepting Christ? Jesus died for the goats. His sheep are those who are saved. His sacrifice was for the unsaved.
James replies:
Jesus specifically SAID that he died for a particular GROUP of people that "the father has given me".
Please re-read the verses I gave in this thread that show that Jesus did NOT die for everyone on the planet.
James wrote -"I am sorry if you decided long ago, that Jesus should die for everyone, and that God should act like Santa Clause, and whatever else you decided upon."
One - I don't need your apology for something you assume about me. Two - Do not include in your reply to me things that I have not said or accuse me or assume to think that I see God as some Santa Clause.
This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. - 1 Timothy 1:15
James wrote - "The FACT is, God HIMSELF has TOLD US HOW HE ACTS TOWARDS his own creation, and THAT is what YOU should accept!!! I know, it may be shocking that God is different than what YOU DECIDED HE SHOULD BE, but after all you are not God, and HE IS."
What you want me to accept is your belief that God extends His love toward only a small portion of creation, going against His very nature of being God is love. Ain't no way!
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. - 1 John 4:8
And again... do not assume to think or accuse me of things such as the above based on the fact that I don't agree with your Calvinistic beliefs. I don't decide who God should be.
What I do not agree with in your usage of Matthew 22:14 is the fact that even though this verse tells us that many are called, your view becomes confusing as to "who" the many are, since God created the many for destruction, and that being so, why "call" them? Your belief has God only calling those that He created for salvation.
James wrote - "If you are offended that God has chosen whom He will save, then WHY are you not offended that in ancient times, God chose ONLY the Jews??? They were a VERY small group of people, and no better than anyone else. WHY doesn't that bother you, as much as God choosing a people for Himself in our time?"
You assume [again] that I am offended... this time over who God has chosen to be saved. Far from it. I find your belief that God withholds Grace, Mercy and Love from ANYONE, to include the greater population of man, ridiculous. To limit the work of the Cross, I find outrageous. As to the Jews... they are the apple of God's eye. They have a place in God's heart and I would not consider them as being "no better than anyone else".
James wrote - "Yes. Many are called to repent and trust in Jesus, and this is the outward call of the gospel. inside that group are the ones the Holy Spirit gives an inward call, and they WILL respond and repent and trust in Jesus."
So you have God, who created the majority of man for destruction and destined to hell, "call" those very same people "to repent and trust in Jesus"? What the heck?????
James wrote - "The word "all" hardly ever means "everyone who ever lived". It can mean all of a kind, or all of a set. The verse you just gave came from a letter written to Timothy who is a Christian. God desires that ALL his chosen people, will be saved."
Oops... didn't see in that verse "ALL his chosen people, will be saved." Probably because Timothy didn't include it. C'mon... That verse is supposed to say that God desires "ALL his chosen people, will be saved"? Why would God need to desire all His chosen to be saved when He already created them to be as such?
James wrote - "Jesus specifically SAID that he died for a particular GROUP of people that "the father has given me". Please re-read the verses I gave in this thread that show that Jesus did NOT die for everyone on the planet."
Right. Because "all" doesn't mean "all" in your Bible. And "the world" doesn't mean "the world" in your Bible. And God so loved doesn't mean God loves the entire human race in your Bible.
You seem to have a habit of ignoring my answers to your posts, hmm?
So I'll jump in here with Saved71, hope you don't mind : )
James, those who believe in limited atonement do not see the big picture, they lack understanding, not only that, but they need to ignore or "interpret" alot of Scripture.
Let's make this easy to understand :
I just won the biggest lottery of all time, more money than I can ever spend, so am throwning a 'financial freedom' party. I invite the "whole" town by sending them invitations that read : "Come to my party and share in my wealth. I have paid the financial debts for every person in town. Come to the party and pickup your receipts, titles and deeds. However many thought it to be a hoax, to good to be true, or to proud to receive charity. Many didn't show up for a variety of reasons. They had no proof their debts where paid in full. The owners of the debts being a unscrupulous bunch knew this so they kept sending the bills which the people continued to pay believing they still owed.
Such it is with people who go to hell.
John 3:17-18 ~ " For God did not sent his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son."
Dear James, Two took a week off from the forums to do his best to study this, and although I adamantly do not agree with him, it is more than most have done here.
To All - Because I believe that these discussions are for the most part pretty fruitless, I have opted out of the forum debates, (see my post titled �Forums and Debates� in the Biblical discussions forum 2/13), but I hope you all would oblige me to post a little bit to those who are sincerely questioning.
I think one thing that we have to keep in mind is the difference between God's decreed will and His desired will. The word for "desires" is �THELEO�, which implies "wish, would rather that, desires". God has such a great love for His creation that He doesn't want to see any perish, but would prefer that all would be saved. We know this verse isn't speaking of a decreed will because there are men and women in hell right now. If it were His decreed will, there wouldn't be any humans in hell at all.
I have mentioned before that it is amazing that God has chosen anyone at all, and it does show His incredible love to save sinners. If justice were served, we would all get what we deserve � to be eternally apart from God.
I don�t believe God actively chooses those who are not saved. God does not create unbelief in people�s hearts. Even in reference to Satan, the Bible never states that God creates evil. It only says that �sin was found in him�. That unbelief is already there. He does not coerce anyone to sin. They sin by their own choices. God gives them over to their own desires. (Romans 1:24)
Why then, you may ask~ why would He even create people that He would just allow to perish? It is no different of an answer that the Arminian would give if I were to ask ~ why would He create people for whom He knew would chose to reject Him? Wouldn�t that negate His �love� as you say?
As for witnessing, how much more confidently can we go to share the gospel, knowing that God will use all of our stumbling and feeble attempts because he has already secured that salvation to them? He can use any means as that tool to bring them to Him, but our job is not to wonder if they are elect or not, or to judge that. We simply fall under obedience and live His plan out.
If anyone is sincerely seeking a civil discussion, please feel free to email me.
So, just what does Jesus mean by saying, "Many are called, but few are chosen", as this relates to salvation in the parable in verses 1-14?
The parable is very plain, and I'm sure if there is clear understanding of the meaning of parable Jesus has spoken here, there will also be spiritual understanding so to what Jesus means by "many are called, but few are chosen."
m fully aware that there will be many that go to hell. And you and James believe they were all created just for that. They don't get the Mercy, Grace and love of God that your believed 'elect' get. Christ' blood doesn't cover them; never did, never will. You change the nature of God with your belief. God is love. But your belief withholds God's love from the world or those who will never receive salvation. How can you share the love of God or Christ with people when your beliefs don't include His love toward all created beings? How can you tell a sinner that Christ died for them, without really knowing whether or not that person is actually an 'elect' person Christ died for? And if they are not 'elect', then you just boldfaced lied to them by saying God loves them and sent His Son to die for them. But then maybe you don't even share the Lord with people. It would be difficult knowing who is who and which person Christ died for and which is not.
Using "you" referring to me and my beliefs over a half dozen times is just what your former post accused James of! I realize it doesn't matter to you, but you are incorrect in assuming what I believe.
shepherdess, my bad. I apologize. I replied to you with a couple remarks and the rest of the questions and statements were meant for James, not you. I can see how it looks to you though. Sorry.
Ok, everybody don't leave, we are on the verge of a Civil discussion!
Especially with Margo here, this is a gal who will respectfully and intelligently and most of all honestly discuss her beliefs. I have tried for weeks to discuss one scripture at a time with James or anyone on this subject. We have a verse---- let's discuss it!
