Thread: Does the Church have to interpret the Bible?
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Does the Church have to interpret the Bible?
Posted : 10 Feb, 2011 06:06 PM
Does the Church have to interpret the bible?
In this era of redemptive history, God has chosen to preserve his truth within the universal Church that he established with his blood; and hence he calls the Church �the pillar and ground of the truth� (1 Timothy 3:15), and exhorts believers to obey the Church's elders who labor in the word and doctrine (1 Timothy 5:17; Hebrews 13:17); however, the bible also indicates that it is necessary and honorable for individual believers to be studying the scriptures daily, to see if the things taught by the Church leaders, no matter how prominent they might be, are according to the bible (Acts 17:11).
Furthermore, although we acknowledge that the truth is preserved in the holy and universal Church, we must realize that it takes biblical discernment even to recognize what the true Church is; for the bible speaks of many false prophets and false doctrines arising up in the midst of the Church, and even indicates that entire churches may become apostate (1 Tim. 4:1-4; 2 Tim. 3:13-17; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Rev. 2:5; 13:11); so that, to recognize what constitutes the Church in which the truth of the bible has been preserved, one must understand what the bible teaches, and realize that no �church� which denies the gospel proclaimed in the bible is a true church at all. Thus, the apostle Paul exalts the gospel which he had proclaimed of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, far above any other authority, whether earthly or heavenly, saying that if any apostle or teacher or angel from heaven, or even himself should proclaim a different gospel, he would be eternally accursed (Gal. 1:6-10); and to this list, we may add any falsely-named �church�.
Thus, recognizing that God has superintended the preservation and formulation of the doctrinal truths of the bible through the history of the Church, no individual believer ought to be so presumptuous as to go lightly against the clear doctrinal statements of the early ecumenical councils on such doctrines as the Trinitarian conception of God and the acceptance of the several books of the canon; but neither will any believer find it a legitimate excuse that they are submitting to the authority of the �church� when they accept any of the blasphemous and unbiblical teaching that has sprung up in many corrupt false churches, according to prophecy. For any so-called �church� that has corrupted the gospel is a false church, and ought not be obeyed even for a moment.
Instead of trying to convince me how ignorant American Christians are, why don't you answer the questions SavedInChrist asked in 'What does it mean to be dead in sin'.
What is/are your ultimate goal(s) in posting in this forum?
Is it your intent to convert all of us to your doctrine?
To help us in some way?
Do you consider the rest of us Christians? If you do, I don't understand why you argue so much causing strife amongst other believers. If you don't, has your approach to witnessing/apologetics proven effective for you in the past?
I'd greatly appreciate a few moments of your time. I've been curious about what your answers would be for quite a while now.
What is/are your ultimate goal(s) in posting in this forum?
James replies:
I would like your answers to the same questions. I think that is only fair.
My ultimate goals in posting here? To glorify God. Also to strengthen the faith of other believers. To comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable.
"T" said:
Is it your intent to convert all of us to your doctrine?
James replies:
I have debated Arminians for quite some time, and also just discussed things with Christians who have never even seen the scriptures concerning God's sovereignty in salvation.
Usually, about 20% of Christians will get angry and reject the doctrines of grace. So, I never thought I would "convert" everyone to accepting the five points of doctrine, nicknamed Calvinism.
I DO think, that just SHOWING other Christians the scriptures on these topics is very important, and some WILL see them and accept the facts. And this will lead to being MORE humble and THANKFUL, and a DEEPER WALK with God.
"T" continues:
To help us in some way?
James replies:
I think we help each other by discussing things with each other.
I can say I have been helped and comforted by others on different parts of Christian discussion groups.
"T" continues:
Do you consider the rest of us Christians?
James replies:
IF......a person is trusting in Christ ALONE, and they have repented, then YES, they are my brother or sister in Christ.
Now, that is presupposing some other things, but I hope you get my meaning.
"T" continues:
If you do, I don't understand why you argue so much causing strife amongst other believers.
James replies:
I don't! Look at the amount of views on each thread and THEN check out the same FEW people who wish to debate me on what I post! There will be a hundred views, and the SAME THREE people debating me.
To me, I think you REALLY mean "James, we are arminian, and we don't even want to admit that, but we really don't want to even read the Scriptures that you post, because we don't want to accept the truth, and our way makes God seem nicer, so don't post any more scriptures, we avoid the ones you keep posting."
"T" continues:
If you don't, has your approach to witnessing/apologetics proven effective for you in the past?
James replies:
You are acting like I posted all the threads on the five points!
Read WHO started these threads, and You will find my name on a few and other peoples names on a few also.
And "T" this could be a man/woman thing. You want us all to get along and play nice, and the Bible says that "Iron sharpens iron", and you might be saying "boys play too rough". Check out WHO starts the threads and it is almost all men.
So, there could be a bit of that too.
"T" continues:
I'd greatly appreciate a few moments of your time. I've been curious about what your answers would be for quite a while now.
James replies:
Well, I think you should answer your own questions also!
And I would also like you to go to www.monergism.com and read there so you can get a better idea of just what historical creedal Christianity is.
I asked, "What is/are your ultimate goal(s) in posting in this forum?"
Your answer: "My ultimate goals in posting here? To glorify God. Also to strengthen the faith of other believers. To comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable."
My reply: I believe you are succeeding at strengthening others' faith and afflicting the comfortable..don't see much along the lines of comforting the afflicted. I'll go further into that later.
My answer: To meet new Christian friends because I don't have many.
I asked, "Is it your intent to convert all of us to your doctrine?" (BTW, I tried to word this as so not to anger you, but I guess that didn't work. I apologize.)
Your answer: "I have debated Arminians for quite some time, and also just discussed things with Christians who have never even seen the scriptures concerning God's sovereignty in salvation. Usually, about 20% of Christians will get angry and reject the doctrines of grace. So, I never thought I would "convert" everyone to accepting the five points of doctrine, nicknamed Calvinism. I DO think, that just SHOWING other Christians the scriptures on these topics is very important, and some WILL see them and accept the facts. And this will lead to being MORE humble and THANKFUL, and a DEEPER WALK with God."
My reply: "I think we can both agree that this question doesn't apply to me. However, what about those other 80%? I think it's a possibility that you just confuse them and because of the hostility that permeates through your posts, they discount you as unfruitful and we know that's not glorifying to God."
I asked, "To help us in some way?"
You answered: "I think we help each other by discussing things with each other. I can say I have been helped and comforted by others on different parts of Christian discussion groups."
My reply: "I think there's a huge difference in discussing and debating."
I asked, "Do you consider the rest of us Christians?"
You answered: "IF......a person is trusting in Christ ALONE, and they have repented, then YES, they are my brother or sister in Christ. Now, that is presupposing some other things, but I hope you get my meaning."
My reply: "I try very hard not to assume things about others. I was inquiring as to your perception of "us".
I asked, "If you do, I don't understand why you argue so much causing strife amongst other believers."
You answered: "I don't! Look at the amount of views on each thread and THEN check out the same FEW people who wish to debate me on what I post! There will be a hundred views, and the SAME THREE people debating me. To me, I think you REALLY mean "James, we are arminian, and we don't even want to admit that, but we really don't want to even read the Scriptures that you post, because we don't want to accept the truth, and our way makes God seem nicer, so don't post any more scriptures, we avoid the ones you keep posting."
My reply: "Wow! Talk about assumptions! Haha! Your reply here speaks volumes and actually answers most of my questions and solidifies my initial thoughts. I pray you would consider the possibility that other people don't debate you not because they think you're correct, but because the three other debaters are speaking for them. Also, perhaps our definitions of 'strife' are different."
I asked, "If you don't, has your approach to witnessing/apologetics proven effective for you in the past?"
You answered: "You are acting like I posted all the threads on the five points! Read WHO started these threads, and You will find my name on a few and other peoples names on a few also. And "T" this could be a man/woman thing. You want us all to get along and play nice, and the Bible says that "Iron sharpens iron", and you might be saying "boys play too rough". Check out WHO starts the threads and it is almost all men. So, there could be a bit of that too. "
My reply: "Like I said earlier, I try not to assume. However, so you don't have to assume what I'm thinking, I'll tell you that I have absolutely no problem with TULIP or those that follow the Doctrine of Grace. Honestly, I don't have a problem. The questions I asked are exactly the questions I wanted you to answer. I don't fully understand what you mean by your comment, "boys play too rough" so I won't assume. You can elaborate or not; which ever you prefer. I hope it doesn't have to do with pride, but like I said, I won't assume. But still, I don't see a clear answer to the original question and that's OK. Sometimes no answer is an answer in itself."
I said, "I'd greatly appreciate a few moments of your time. I've been curious about what your answers would be for quite a while now."
In this, I tried to show you an amount of respect so as not to arm your defences. I apologize since it didn't work.
James, may I call you James? I think one of the basic fundamentals of debating (truly debating) is not to assume the thoughts or intentions of fellow debators. Before we assume anything, we should ask a question or two to clearly define exactly what is being debated. You see, assumption and perception go hand in hand. Because you assumed I am armenian, you perceived me as an 'enemy' and automatically got defensive. For all you 'know', I am a Calvinist but only dis-heartened by the perception of us you give to others? Example: Let's say a baby Christian is reading one of the debates over Calvinism (used as a nickname) and sees how hostile some of your comments are. How do you think they would perceive you?
You don't really have to respond. I pray you will at least contemplate the things I've spoken of. If I've offended you at all, I sincerely apologize. Sometimes I could certainly word my ideas better.
No harm intended,
With love,
T - BTW, that's really the nickname my friends use.
Before I met you I never gave much attention to Calvinism, I knew some basics and just thought it main line Christianity. After you started posting I took a week off this forum and did nothing else except study Calvinism and Arminianism. I found out I was neither. I found out Calvinists are extremeists in their interpretation of Scripture. I found out they ignore alot of Scripture, explain it away or call it a divine paradox. I found out historical Calvinists were murderers and persecutors of brothers and sisters in Christ. I found out where ever Calvinism is there is strife in the Body of Christ and not unity, just like it is here in the forum with your copy and paste propaganda. Anyone can go to a Calvinist website or a Arminian website and copy and paste with no understanding. You have singlehandedly convinced a bunch of people who really didn't know much about Calvinism before you came along, that Calvinism is a cult.
I very rarely contibute to the Biblical forums because, like Mr. 2Sparrows pointed out, anybody can copy and paste, and as I have noticed, many of these posts are simply used as a medium to cause strife and discord among fellow Christians.
However, both Mr. 2sparrows and Browneyedgirlky raise valid points.
Browneyedgirlky ask you very reasonable, intelligent and straight forward questions that were not in any way meant to provoke your ire or ridicule.
Instead of answering her questions, you tried to belittle her and 2sparrows both without making your point.
I guess my question is-do you even know what it is you copied and pasted? Have you taken the time to study the topic of your post? Have you studied other views before you are so quick to condemn what you call modern Christians"?
Exactly how many parishoners have you polled concerning the Ten Commandments?
Oh, and weren't the good Puritans -who you claim had a better knowledge and understanding of the Bible as we "modern Christians" do-the same ones who accused 143 members and nonmembers alike of witchcraft-many who were homeless, 3 because they suffered from Epilepsy? Of those acused of witchcraft, 19 were hanged, 1 pressed to death by the good people of Salem, and 13 died in prison. They did this because the way they interpreted the Bible, all of the problems the village of Salem was suffering from (Indian attacks, small pox, failed crops) was due to God's wrath. (Yes, I did my homework)
SirJames, my intent is neither to provoke your ire, nor belittle you. Amd before you respond I wamt you to know that I am educated in both Theology, American History, and have studied both the Calvinist and Arminian doctrine in depth.
How many parishoners have you polled about the 10 commandments, sirJames?
Yes, I do believe it takes more than a well placed Bible and a limited knowledge of the story of Jesus to call yourself a Christian. Just as it takes more than the ctrl/c, ctrl/v buttons on the computer to consider yourself educated.
Twosparrows is right. I knew very little about the Calvanist doctrine until it was pushed so HARD in this Biblical section.
I've seen many cut and paste posts so I had to search out the Calvinists doctrine for myself and what I've been reading has me seeing why Calvinism could be considered cultish.
James, please consider what T and edw have said to you.
Maybe God is trying to show you that YOU ARE WRONG HERE. :prayingf:
Deborah
BTW ---I don't post in this section often any more either. People can be very un-kind here. And ,yes, the few who do stand up to you are speaking on behalf of many!
