It does not mean mankind is totally depraved, it does not mean man has total inability to respond to God thru his word.
The answer is found in this truth:
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man�s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
When Adam sinned the Glory of God left man, and Satan became mankind's dominator spiritually, but the lord made away, that until Jesus came to the earth and lived and then died and was resurrected, that mankind could walk with God.
Yes man was dead spiritually, but the word tells us how man could walk in the light of God's word, in making this statement, I am not saying or insinuating man can save himself.
This post is to show how man walked with God prior to the resurrection.
0 � My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
25 Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
1 � My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:
2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge.
3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:
4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them.
7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth.
Pro 4:20 � My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
25 Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
1 � My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:
The word of God told mankind how to do exactly, what some say, and want you to believe, that man can not repsond to the word of God.
Number one to keep the word of God before your eyes!!
Number two keep it in your ears.!!!
Number three keep them in the midst of your heart!!!
Number four speak these word out of your mouth, for they will produce faith, and that faith was accounted unto whosever did that as rightousness!!
We will make another post to illustrate this principle!!
This doctrine is so subtle Jude, allow me to explain fully what James is really saying:
The Father draws only those he has chosen for no particular reason (duck duck goose) before the world began, these are the elect. The elect are literally dragged to Jesus by irresistible grace, they are so depraved they cannot respond to Jesus, the same irresistible grace makes them willing to respond. No person has a say in this matter....period (no choice, no free will) The elect and un-elect cannot decide to to accept or deny. The elect go to heaven, the un-elect go to hell.
Jude is that what you believe?
If you do, you do.
However, this doctrine is not found in the Bible without alot of fancy interpretation.
The Bible says that Fallen mankind will ONLY choose to reject God, and that their will is enslaved to sin. I can show a dozen Scriptures that say this.
Twosparrows said:
This doctrine is so subtle Jude, allow me to explain fully what James is really saying:
James replies:
There is NOTHING subtle about it. It is shocking to most modern American Christians, because they attend churches where so much of the Bible is never preached on. They do not know church history, their OWN Christian history, and they have only a shallow knowledge of the Bible.
Two sparrows said:
The Father draws only those he has chosen for no particular reason (duck duck goose) before the world began,
James replies:
One Thing I have seen over and over, is when you SHOW a Christian the verses about God being sovereign in salvation, they for some reason, all use the word "arbitrary" which is what twosparrows is doing here. God does NOTHING arbitrarily, and just because we don't know the reason God chose someone, does NOT mean that God chooses arbitrarily. God does everything according to his perfect wisdom. And Yes, the Bible PLAINLY says that God chose a people for Himself before the world began, see Romans 9.
Twosparrows said:
these are the elect. The elect are literally dragged to Jesus by irresistible grace,
James replies:
The elect, being born in sin, and totally spiritually dead, with a will enslaved to sin, are at some point, made alive by the Holy Spirit. I can produce a dozen Scriptures that say this. Jesus told Nicodemus you have to be born again, in order to even see the kingdom of God. Paul said the same thing repeatedly.
Twosparrows said:
they are so depraved they cannot respond to Jesus,
James replies:
I can produce a dozen Scriptures that say this!
Twosparrows said:
the same irresistible grace makes them willing to respond.
James replies:
When God takes a fallen person, and makes them into a new creature and puts a new heart in them, they NATURALLY want to repent and trust in Jesus. I can produce several Scriptures that say this.
twosparrows said:
No person has a say in this matter....period (no choice, no free will) The elect and un-elect cannot decide to to accept or deny. The elect go to heaven, the un-elect go to hell.
James replies:
That is exactly right, and we Christians should be humble and eternally THANKFUL that God did not leave us in our fallen sinful condition, but instead showed us mercy, by putting a new heart in us. ALL glory, goes to God!
Jude is that what you believe?
If you do, you do.
However, this doctrine is not found in the Bible without alot of fancy interpretation.
Which is why I reject it.
James replies:
I disagree. There is ZERO "fancy interpretation", and you reject the plain words of Scripture, because YOU DON'T LIKE GOD BEING SOVEREIGN IN SALVATION. You think it makes God unfair, even though you have not not said it yet.
I totally agree with what you said Two, but I know this was not brought out, I also see many implying that not all are called, or not all are chosen so they won't be called.
In understanding the will of God for any topic and in this case, what is the will of God for all of mankind, who is able to become a child of God? Who did the Jesus make eligible to be a child of God?
It starts here:2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The father is not willing that any would perish.
The bible also tells us it was not made for man, it was made for Satan.
The bible tells us that the father is not a respecter of persons
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
All men everywhere very clear>
Who did Jesus say would be saved?
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
In specifically dealing with who can be a child of God, the scripture is very clear.
And the how to is summed up in Romans ch. 10 verses three thru fifteen.
When we talk about the father drawing mankind, I believe he is telling us how one comes to him not whom.
Another point to make here is this the word of God is spirit and alive, so you better know that the word of 'God' speaks, draws.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So when we talk about who is drawn scripture is clear to the believer concerning who the father desires to be saved, and we also know it is man's choice to accept or reject.
We must search the word that we know the God of the word!!
I agree, however reformed doctrine has a ready made answer for this. Allow me to paraphrase: God created mankind knowing they would fall and be sent to hell. But since God is a loving and compassionate God, He chose a few beforehand He would save. That is their Sovereign God? I guess they place more importance on God's Sovereignty that on His Love.
Everything points to Jesus, did Jesus come to show mankind the Sovereignty of God or the Love of God?
I don't think God is concerned about His Sovereignty, if your Sovereign your Sovereign ...period. The only reason God wants man to know He is Sovereign is so we can 100% trust He can accomplish what He promises. The real thing God wants us to know is that He Loves us, that is the thing that seperates God and man.
When your posts james cause a dear sister in Christ to start questioning whether or not she's one of the 'elect' you're talking about and if she is chosen to be a child of God or not it's time for you to calm down and stop causing fear in the hearts of precious people who Love Jesus.
"There is ZERO "fancy interpretation", and you reject the plain words of Scripture, because YOU DON'T LIKE GOD BEING SOVEREIGN IN SALVATION"
----------------
A couple of things James,
You keep putting words in my mouth so you can declare me wrong.....what is that about? Can't you find something I am actually saying to declare wrong???
God IS Sovereign in salvation, however you misunderstand salvation. Salvation is in a intimate loving personal relationship with God, you can't force that kind of relationship! And that is what your doctrine does.
You paint God LESS Sovereign than I do, by saying God can ONLY do it one way (your way) when Scripture says the opposite. By Scripture, I paint a Sovereign God who can chose conditional or unconditionally, He can drag a man or woo a man, He can simply call them or knock them off a horse, His grace can be irresistible to one and resistible to another.
Twosparrows wrote- "No person has a say in this matter....period (no choice, no free will) The elect and un-elect cannot decide to to accept or deny. The elect go to heaven, the un-elect go to hell."
To which James replied- "That is exactly right, and we Christians should be humble and eternally THANKFUL that God did not leave us in our fallen sinful condition, but instead showed us mercy, by putting a new heart in us. ALL glory, goes to God!"
So... let's say one of my family members or one of my friends or coworkers has rejected Christ up to this point and therefore is not of "the elect". Am I to think that God made him for destruction; an 'un-elect' and outcast from the family of God, and heck, because he's rejected Christ through no will of his own, because after all, he doesn't have a will of his own to make that decision or not, there's no sense in praying for him because he's gonna be thrown in hell without the hope of Salvation? Is that about right?
And what of the person who willfully [or not?] denies Christ, then sometime down the road, maybe a year or two, whatever, realizes his need for a Savior and places his trust and life in Christ? Did God cause him to deny Christ and then later accept Christ? Does God cause someone to deny Christ? Did God cause Peter to deny Christ three times, thereby making Peter blameless in his denial of Christ?
