In previous threads over the past couple days, there has been a huge problem become evident which has yet to been dealt with in the Calvinist vs. Arminian debate. The problem is this: Both sides have presented Scriptures supporting their arguments. It's like you've got one side saying, "These are the Calvinistic verses!" and the other, "These are the Arminian verses!" because Scripture is both of our authorities. However, Scripture cannot contradict itself, thus one of these views has wrongly interpreted some Scripture passages. Scriptures must be in agreement, thus if an interpretation can be shown to go against a *clear* teaching of Scripture, then the interpretation *must* be wrong. That said, I want to look at one particular point and that is total depravity and its implications.
This thread is meant to answer the question "Are we dead in sin?" And if the answer is yes, "Does this mean we are totally depraved or have total spiritual inability?" These questions, and these ONLY are to be discussed. Please limit your arguments to these parameters.
Ephesians 2 talks about being "dead in trespasses and sins" (v1) and how we were "dead in sins" (v5). As many of you well know, this is a proof text for Calvinism, if it can be shown that "dead in sins" does not equal "total depravity/total inability" then the Calvinism would be, at best, very badly injured.
So...Are we dead in sins? And please explain what that means.
2sparrow, you're out to lunch:eat:...:ROFL: c'mon now, connect the dots...
Rommans chapter 6 says it like this, What shall we say then? Shall we continue to sin so that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall WE who DIED TO SIN live ANY LONGER IN SIN?...
So what does all of this mean, you ask? Well if you are a born again Cgristian, your sins have been forgiven, and covered with the blood of Jesus Christ by GRACE therefore, because of GRACE we who are CHRISTIAN are covered by grace, but not so that we continue to sin, but because now we are no longer condemned becasue we sin. However, as a born Christian from above on the inside, we have become a NEW CREATION in Christ, and therefore we are now aware of those things God calls sin, and we should then wlak accordingly to the NEW CREATION we have become and live our lives accordingly. When we become born again, the old sinful person we once were should have beeN crucified (DIED), AND as Paul says, we are SUPPOSE to be walking in the newness of life serving God thorugh Christ, no longer under the control of sin, and you have the power of the Holy Spirit living on the inside to help you and prevent you from sinning. That is of course, if you are truly born again in the inner man. Otherwise, if you're still sinning and are SUPPOSE TO BE BORN AGAIN, then you have not been SET FREE FROM SIN.
BTW, 2sparrow, REGENARATION mean to be born again or to be restored, or to be quickened which means made alive. A person cannot be tested by the Holy Spirit, when a person repents of their sisn and receive Jesus cHrist as their lLord and Savior, the Holy Spirit of God and, Jesus, immediately come and make their how inside of that person according to John chapter14- 15, this is the promise Jesus gave to us that they will come and live on the inside of us. The Holy Spirit seals us which is our garuntee of salvation and protection to help keep us from sinning and live a Christ-like life until Jesus comes.
Regenration is the cleaning us up on the inside by the Holy Spirit, which give us our spiritual change in our hearts and changes us from our sinful nature (old man), in our minds and everything, plus brings us into a knowledge of Christ releasing us from our sins and turning us ot God.
I think you should read Romans chapter 6, some good stuff in it and will help you better understand how it is that we are changed from the old sinful nature that was once dead IN sins, but are changed to the new nature in Christ ALIVE IN CHRIST, dead TO sin no longer interested..can't be influenced by sin..
It means that man is separated from God spiritually, is all that it means. does it put man in the place, some men say we are in, absolutely not.
James your attempt is very simple in error, man is not a natural man, you are not speaking the whole truth in context.
If you approach God with the mind and the flesh and that is exactly what the scripture James post is talking about.
This in context is speaking to christians.
!st Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man�s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 � And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
All of the Jews that came out of Egypt, where capable of believing God but only two of them went in to the promise land, according to you man was judged for doing something he was not capable of.
The old testament very clearly tells those that have a ear to hear, and eyes to see, they can know the will of God and walk in it, and I did not say they where born again, for the word of God will and does illuminate the darkened heart of man.
Prov 4:20 � My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.
25 Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.
1 � My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:
2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge.
Ps 18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness.
Pr 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Pr 24:20 For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.
Ps 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Ps 119:9 � BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 � With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 � Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
105 � NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
1) "The Scripture says, DEAD and ALIVE, and nothing in between."
2) "Please show me where fallen man gets a "tasting on the Holy Spirit which the man chooses to accept or reject".
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James this is supposed to be a discussion on a Bible verse, and here you are 'Again' turning it into debate.
1) James *sigh* the word "dead" is used figuratively....do you know what that means?
2) The verse you asked for...Hebrews 6:4-6 (I would type it out for you but have already typed it for you once already)
There are also more scriptures all you have to do is think about where the "false teachers" came from, not only should it help you find the verses, but it will help you answer your question if you are honest with yourself.
I think you are missing the point of the topic post, the Calvinist interpretation of Eph 2:1 They use this verse to say regeneration or born again occurs BEFORE you repent of your sins and accept Jesus.
Ella James continually trys to use this dead in sin, to say that man is not capable to respond to God and the God regenerates, the elect because they are supposedly the chosen and they will not resist the grace of god.At the appointed time the Son came into the world and secured their
redemption. But these two great acts--election and redemption--do
not complete the work of salvation, because included in God's plan
for recovering lost sinners is the renewing work of the Holy Spirit
by which the benefits of Christ's obedience and death are applied to
the elect. It is with this phase of salvation (its application by
the Spirit) the the doctrine of Irresistable Grace or Efficacious
Grace is concerned. Simply stated, this doctrine asserts that the
Holy Spirit never fails to bring to salvation those sinners whom He
personally calls to Christ. He inevitably applies salvation to EVERY
sinner whom he intends to save, and it is His intention to save all
the elect.
Although the outward call of the gospel is made to all, through
preachers, radio, bible tracts, Christians, etc. It is mostly
rejected. The special INWARD call of the Spirit never fails to
result in the conversion of those for whom it is intended. This
special inward call is issued to the elect only! The Spirit is in no
way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in bringing
them to Christ. God lovingly takes away their heart of stone and
gives them a heart of flesh. they come because the WANT to, the want
to, because they have been made willing by HIS grace.
Here is a quote from the Council of Orange in 529AD:
If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved by assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the effectual work of the Holy Spirit, who makes all whom He calls gladly and willingly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray from the plain teaching of Scripture by exalting the natural ability of man, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).
2sparrow, I John 1:8, is speaking about a person saying that they ARE WITHOUT SIN, meaning never have had any sin or sins... had it not been for God providing an opportunity for us to repent of our sins through Jesus' death on the cross, which was God's salvation plan, we would be doomed for hell. But through Jesus Christ and His redemption power in His blood and death on the cross, this provided us with an opportunity for repent and come (be reconciled back) to God in God's righteousness as if we were sinless.
I John goes on to say, IF we CONFESS OUR SINS, God is faithful and just to FORGIVE US OF ALL OUR SINS, AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL OUR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
You cannot condradict what God's word says, its all written in the word, this is why Paul says, There, is THEREFORE, NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS WHO DO NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE FLESH (IN SIN) Romans chapter 8...
PJ, thank for the input, I don't know and really don't care what James is trying to do, because I know what the scripture say and what God has said. Up until Jesus Christ died on the cross everybody in the whole world WERE IN SIN (DEAD IN SIN), AND WALKED ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DESIRES... Jesus' death opened up a way for us to no longer be DEAD IN SIN, by repentance, and receiveing what Christ did for us, because Christ became sin for us and crucified and nailed ALL OUR SINS TO THE CROSS, so that we could come to Him in repentance, and be made in right standing before God. DEAD TO SINS AND ALIVE IN CHRIST.. does anyone really understand what the word says?... I don't think so.
One thing I do know is that there is not any spiritual insight and/or understanding of God;'s word going on around here. Just a lot of scripture posting and spiritual unlearned rambling. God's word is very clear about man walking in sin without Christ, and only when Jesus died on the cross was man able to be forgiven of his sins, and be made clean before God through repentance.
The question is what does it mean to be DEAD IN SIN. And the answer is to be without Christ in your life for the forgiveness of sin, which means you are DEAD IN YOUR SINS, in other words you are without any regards to Christ, and under the influence of sin. y'all need to read the word and know what God has to say and not what Calvin or Arminus or anyone else has to say. How can there be Biblical discussion when no one knows how to connect the dots of scriptures and explain the scriptures they paost?
2sparrow for lunch we're having roasted duck with the trimings:bouncy::yay::toomuch:
Oh, I forgot, 2sparrow, there is NO WAY regenaration occurs BEFORE you have repented of your sins. The purpose AND WORK of the Holy Spirit is to REGENARATE US AFTER we have repented of our sins, so that the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus can come live on the inside of us. Regenaration only means to be spiritually cleansed on the inside by the Holy Spirit, and when there is sincere repentance, the Holy Spirit comes and lives inside of us.
If James or those who are Calvinsit think otherwise, may God Himself clear this up for them. There is no way any one can believe the Holy Spirit comes inside of us, before repentance, if so, they've got is all wrong, and maybe this is why many are not and have not been truly born again in the Spirit, saved.
Regeneration is the spiritual change that takes place in the heart of a person by the Holy Spirit, AFTER the person has repented, and the sinful nature is changed on the inside bringing the person in the knowledge of the fulness of Christ as Paul speaks about in Romans 6, and when this is done the person is SUPPOSE to take on the divine anture of Christ, this is where you become DEAD TO SIN AND ALIVE IN CHRIST. Regeneration secures our our new life in Chirst, this is how we are sealed.
Look at this like the battery that is DEAD in your car, car can't start until it has been CHARGED or RESTORED, and if the cells are DEAD, or the battery needs water, what do you do first, put water in the battery, charge(restore) the battery over night, and the car starts. Same work of the Holy Spirit, you are DEAD in sin, until there is first repentance, then the Holy Spirit comes and charges (restore) you and changes your life from the inside out, and you are set to go and get started living a new life in Chirst, because you have now been amde ALIVE again. Regeneration is a washing out the old sinful nature, and restoration of the new nature(Chirst's image) that is found in Christ...
