1st Jn1:Ps 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
5 � This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Ps 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Some many times as you will see on these post, as those endeavor to proclaim their doctrines of men, you can easily detect the error, for it does not agree with the entirety of scripture.
Such as Total depravity
Total inability
Irresistible Grace
For instance Romans Ch 9:14 � What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
In finding the will of God on any matter we have to Consider context always.
If you desire to Find the will of God to mankind on the topic of mercy all you have to do is get a concordance, and find scriptures that will include all of mankind, concerning the will of God concerning the mercy of God.
Walk in the light of the word of God, not the word of man
"Ok presby, why would you make such a statement and then proclaim calvinism?"
Ironically enough, if you associate anything I said with Calvinism, then you are simply recognizing that fact that Calvinism and the Scripture do well agree :glow:
The Scriptures you have quoted in no way contradict what I've said. Those who fear God and those who believe in God have been given mercy and are continually being given mercy. That is a fact, and that is in fact, why we are also preserved in Christ. He bought every mercy for us. The real question is: What causes someone to believe in Christ?
It is *not* available for anyone who asks, in the sense that they ask it of their own will. For example, a child hits his brother and his parents go to punish him for it. He pleads for mercy but only because he does not want to fact the consequences of his action. There is not repentance in him, no sorrow of the sin he's done, and no humility. To a person like this, who regrets only the consequence of his sin and has not truly put his trust in the one against whom he has sinned and is not, thus, disgusted by his sins and in awe of the goodness of God, to this person, mercy will not be granted; though he plead ever so desperately.
None the less, the words are true that whosoever believes on him, shall not perish, but have eternal life. Theirs sins shall be forgiven and they shall be given mercy if they truly repent from their sins and believe the gospel.
But this leads to an objection. How can we who are "dead in trespasses and sins," who "have turned aside," who do no do good, whose hearts are deceitful above all things, who are at enmity with God and haters of God and who cannot please God - How can we ever put our faith in the one whom we despise and repent from that which we love?We cannot! We are not able. We do what we desire to do, and what we desire to do is sin.
"The carnal mind is an emnity with God [Total Depravity]; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God [Total inability]" (Rom. 5:7-8)
Calvin may not have been so much of a fool as to think that man, who loves sin and hates God, could ever choose in his own power, strength, or will to love God but that was not Calvin speaking. That is the Holy Scriptures. Calvin submitted his doctrine and his beliefs to what the Word of God teaches; his reasoning is not apart from Scripture thus if we appeal to Calvin, we do not appeal to him as his own entity, but to Calvin as a teacher and proclaimer of the Holy Word of God.
We need first for God to have mercy on us and second, as a consequence to his mercy and favor, to put our trust in him. We are carnal and unable to do that. "They glorified God, saying, 'Then God has also granted to the Gentiiles repentance to life'" (ac. 11:18). Genuine repentance is the fruit of a regenerate heart. Jesus taught that the source of sinful thoughts and acts is the heart and not the will; the will simply follows the heart (Mk. 7:21). How can we who only desire the pleasure of sin, ever of our own free will give all of it up for the One whom we hate?
You may despise Calvinism, but its not Calvin you are despising. Calvinism is simply a recognized term (verbal shortcut) to refer to the *biblical* teaching that God deserves all the glory in our salvation because he has done the entire work. To despise that, is not to despise Calvin, but Calvin's God, the God of the Bible who sits on the throne, whose wrath is as severe as how unlimited His grace is. He will receive the glory due to Him for He is a jealous God so it would be wise not to oppose Him.
Of course Calvin could have been wrong in some of his beliefs and I am not familiar with every particular detail of his beliefs, so I could in no way defend every minuscule aspect of his beliefs. Also not, however, that because the ultimate authority for our beliefs is the Bible and not primarily our own reason, his belief must be proven wrong by its contradiction with Scripture not our own personal preferences.
Now about the garden and the Tree of Knowledge. It is important to note that Adam and Eve's wills were free in the sense that nothing inside of them compelled them to sin against God. This is why the temptation had to come from outside of Adam. However, this does not mean it was a "test" from God, as if he needed to learn more about Adam and Eve in order to judge them correctly. God created Adam and Eve knowing full well that they would throw the earth into sin, death, and chaos so that He might provide a way of redemption to shine forth His relative attributes, that of mercy, grace, and loving-kindness, so that He might be praised for being a gracious God. We were created to glorify God.
You see, God has 2 types of attributes - absolute and relative. His absolute attributes are truth, love and power which he could show among Himself (the Godhead) from eternity past. However, He could not show His relative attributes of mercy, grace and lovingkindness because God does need mercy or grace or lovingkindness (basically an undeserved love). So God to show these attributes needed someone who needed mercy, grace, and lovingkindness.
So, Adam's will was free in the sense that he had no reason to rebel against God's command and could even will what was good. It was *not* free in the sense that he created his own future (which God was, you know, hoping it would work out this way but only kinda cheering for Adam to do the right thing but not able to make it happen...). No, God knew that Adam would sin and he prearranged it just as he prearranged for Jesus to be sent to the cross to die for the sins of the elect so that He might be glorified. The fall is apart of God's unfolding of His grace.
However, when Adam and Eve sinned, from that time on man could not choose to will any spiritual good accompanying salvation. The simple reason is that man is dead in sin.
With Israel, this is not actually agree upon by all. Besides, all this would prove is that our wills are "free" only in the sense that we follow what we desire and nothing outside of that, and since we only desire evil and sin, then only those whom God did not elect (which is the *true* Israel), rejected the Messiah.
And to your last one - "You did not choose me, but I choose you" (Jn. 15:16). We do not need to "accept Jesus" to be saved, we need to be made acceptable unto Jesus by the washing of regeneration not our intellectuality.
If you read John 15:16 in context you will see that Jesus was talking to His Disciples, not you and me or anyone else. Not to the Jew not to the Greek but to His Disciples! Christ is telling His Disciples that He picked them to be His Disciples. This verse has nothing to do with getting or receiving salvation. God has chosen everyone but not everyone will accept being chosen.
If you actually read the whole chapter or perhaps even the whole book the individual verses are much clearer. But since were in the neighborhood John 15 you�ll find this chapter rich with evidence that God places prerequisites on receiving. In verse 2 the prerequisite to get thrown away, bear no fruit; the prerequisite to being purge is bear fruit. In verse 4 the prerequisite to Christ abiding in you is you abide in Him. In verse 5 the prerequisite for you to bear fruit is for Christ to abide in you. In verse 6 the prerequisite to getting cast into the fire is to not abide in Him. In verse 7 the prerequisite to getting what you ask is abiding in Him and His words abiding in you. In verse 8 the prerequisite to being chosen as a Disciple is glorify His Father by bearing much fruit.
Sure seems to me that our decisions determine what we get. If there is no free will then your decisions have already been made for you. So why worry about it, just go live out the decisions that have already been made for you!
Here is what I came up with in a recent bible study:
It would have been a simple matter for an all-powerful God to just not put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, or stopped Satan from entering. He chose not to do that, but why?
Most people will tell you it was so we could choose to come to Him of our own free will, but I think there is much, much more to it than that. Remember, we are talking about God here. We would not have had to fall to choose Him. We could have just lived in the garden in perfect righteousness aside from Him if we chose to do so, there was no sin after all.
Let's take a closer look at creation for ideas.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
Once again, a pattern emerges. We see that seeming opposites are paired together, why? Because God designed us to understand things by comparison. Without dark, we wouldn't know light. Same with everything...hot/cold, wet/dry, strong/weak, and especially good/evil.
We had to be able to compare God to something to realize His goodness. Without evil, we could never appreciate Him for who He truly is, good.
Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
By allowing us to fall and experience evil, God also had to give us a way back so we could experience good as well. He had to find a way to call us out of sin, and into righteousness. Moses tried, but the children of Israel were afraid to even listen to a holy God. They wanted Moses to relay God's message to them. Fear, because of our sin, makes it necessary for us to place someone between us and God. Moses did good in this position for a time, but that old fallen nature caught up to him, and made it plain that a mere man would never be able to accomplish this.
So, we needed a mediator. One who was faithful to God alone. One who would not let man's fallen condition influence them. One that people would not fear, but embrace. We know now who that was, Jesus, the Christ. 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
If we didn't have a single verse attesting to the Deity of Christ, this revelation alone would prove it. No mere man would have been capable of what Jesus did. But what a price to pay...death on the cross. And not just Him, but the Father as well. Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to show that God planned our way back before the fall.
That verse says nothing about accepting Jesus. Allow me to explain more: We are sinners (rebels) who have offended God, broken His laws, spat in His face, and put ourselves in His place. What is the problem with that? We are the problem. We do not "accept" Jesus to be saved. Salvation is not, "Oh yeah I think Jesus' plan makes sense so I'll just accept Him, perhaps even add him to the other gods I have, the biggest one being myself." No, that is not what needs to be done. The problem is our sin. We have offended the Most High; as we are, we could never be saved. Salvation must come from/originate in an outside source - that being God. Our decision is not what saves us, it is Christ and Him alone.
The problem is not that Jesus has died for everyone and now is just begging, and pleading, and hoping that someone would accept His precious gift but powerless to do anymore for them. If that were the problem, than God would be sadly disappointed and have died in vain because the carnal mind cannot understand nor accept spiritual things. In reality, God has chosen the elect, made them acceptable through the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, and given them as a bride to His Son Jesus. When our sins are forgiven and our spirit made alive, then we are saved, and that, my friend, is not our accepting of God but his accepting of us.
All I know is I accepted Christ in my heart when I fell on my knees and asked Him to forgive my sins. I truly repented for my life of sinning and I was born again. I received the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues immediately ( I know it's different with some but that was my experience).
I Love Jesus Christ with all my heart .
I once was lost; but now am found; Was blind but now I see.
Well, everything Jesus said was directed to someone. That does not mean that it does not effect us today. In the next verse, v17, Jesus says, "These things I command you, that you love one another." Even though that was directed at the 12 disciples, clearly it is a commandment of anyone who is a disciple of Jesus Christ, even us today. It does not make sense to say that Jesus only chose the 12 disciples and not all those who follow him. You mean to say that Jesus did not allow the disciples to have a free will? Shame on him.
Jesus in this chapter is talking to all who are in Him, "every branch in me" Jesus said. In your rendering, it would not make sense for Jesus to say you must bring forth fruit to abide in me to the disciples who had no choice to abide in Him or not! Jesus has chosen all those in Him who bear fruit which is every true disciple.
Lets be clear. First of all, the book of John, being the most theological of the gospels, is very clear on the 5 points of Calvinism. John 1:12-13, 3:5-8, 4:14, 5:24, 6:37, 6:44-45, 10:3-4, 10:28-29, 13:1, 14:23, 15:16, 17:2, 17:9, 17:11, pretty much all John 17 - These all teach at least one of the 5 points clearly from their context.
Secondly, if you look at those verses you gave in John 15 as "prerequisites" to salvation, then it really makes this passage...well, nonsensical and heretical. You would have to assume that every man is born saved - in other words, that every human being is born in Jesus, not Adam as the Bible so clearly teaches. So that we are all in Christ and sorta thrown away when we slip away from that and don't bear fruit. "Without me you can do nothing" (v5), well then everyone would have to be born in Christ with the ability to bear fruit and only cast off once they stop bearing fruit from birth.
On the other hand, there is an interpretation of this verse that is not heretical and does not contradict other passages of Scripture. Jesus says, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him" (Jn. 14:23). This is clearly not what saves them, but evidence that they have truly been saved. You are not a true Christian if you profess faith in Christ but do not obey the Bible. That is all the verses in John 15 are teaching. Faith without works is dead (James 3:17). If you truly love Jesus (you have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit) then you will keep God's Word and the Father will love you and keep you until you come unto Him.
