I do about "Jacobus Arminius" and his followers 5 points. The reason no one makes a fuss about it is cause they are not following him, because probably over 90% of non-Calvinist believers don't even know who he is. Absolutely no disrespect intended ; but Calvinists are viewing this from a environment of Calvinism where 99.9% of the believers have been taught about Calvinism vs Ariminian theology. I suspect the truth is if you surveyed all those who are Not Calvinists and had them define their beliefs on the 5 points you would find the majority of them adhere to a mixture of both. The other thing to bring to light is most non-Calvinists do not even know the 5 points much less have them defined. Yet from the perspective of a Calvinist who subconsciously thinks it is a given that all believers have thought through the 5 points just as he/she has because they are paramount in "his/her" faith, is not seeing the picture clearly, especially when it comes to labeling all others as Ariminians or a 3 or 4 point Calvinist. I was raised Catholic and am not comparing Catholicism with Calvinism, but I do know what it is like to have to shed all the preconceived doctrines and interpretations of scriptures to be able to see clearly. I am not saying 5 point Calvinism is wrong. It is just people in the forum and on some web sites I found just parrot doctrines with no understanding. I am quick to recognize this only because past experience with the Catholic Church, then later with Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons. I am not saying Calvinism is a cult! Just that they tend to see things ONLY from the perspective of a Calvinist. I have asked sincerely for Scriptural Proof and get the same thing over and over like I am supposed to understand the meaning Calvinists have been taught since youth and have poured into their verse and automatically believe.
You used the word "Ignorant" 3 times (twice in caps).
And make it quite clear you are the only one that knows the truth, knows church history and the rest of us are,...how do you say it?...oh yeah...IGNORANT.
JAMES, BTW: Calvin died in 1564 and Arimianism started as early as 1588 and as late as 1603. Do the math, not even close to 100 years.
James can you fill in the blank? (Caps are acceptable)
Thanks SIRjames for pointing out our American ignorance to the fall, church history, theologians, pilgrims and puritans, the reformation, middle ages, the early church fathers and even the apostles themselves.
Of course that�s why we saved Europe from the nazis so you could teach us ignorant Americans how to be saved.
Good thing even us dogs can eat scraps from the masters plate.
By the way SIRjames where you like knighted by the Knights of Malta or something similar?
"Please quit playing games, I am weary of this. Do you or do you not have a Scriptural answer to the following question or not?
Does man, after the fall, who was created by God still retain a innate ability to respond to the Holy Spirit.
*Instructions : You must provide me with a scripture(s) that UNEQUIVOCALLY DENIES THE POSSIBILITY.
If you can't do it, then honestly, what do you expect of me?......."
James replies:
I already gave scriptures that say that man does NOT HAVE THE ABILITY. I will do this again, and please read them slowly....
(1 Corinthians 2:14) "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Got that? Natural man CAN NOT know the things of the Spirit of God.
(John 3:3) "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Got that? Natural man can not know or see the Kingdom of God.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
So, I think you would have to agree that natural man does not have the ability.
Man is constituted a sinner by his relationship with Adam Psa 51:5; Psa 58:3; Rom 5:18-19 He is therefore unable
1. To do anything good
2. Gen 6:5; Job 15:14-16; Psa 130:3; Psa 143:2; Pro 20:9; Ecc 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 13:23; John 3:19; Rom 3:9-12; Jam 3:8; 1John 1:8
To believe in God (or come to him)
3. John 6:44; John 6:65; John 8:43-45; John 10:26; John 12:37-41
To understand the truth
4. John 14:17; 1Cor 2:14
To seek God
Rom 3:10-11
But twosparrows, you also demanded for a verse that says that mankind lost the Ability because of the Fall....
Here it is:
Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Now, if you remember, Adam and Eve did NOT die physically on that day. They died SPIRITUALLY that day.
And notice HOW MANY TIMES in the New Testament, that mankind is presented as "dead in sins" etc.
Eph 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others.
Col 2:13 And you, being DEAD in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
I'm not a Calvinist nor a Arminus,I am a Christian who believes totally in Jesus Christ, and my life is based on the DOCTRINE OF JESUS CHIRST AND WHAT GOD HAS TO SAY ABOUT MAN. There is always disagreement when man interprets God's word, instead of receiving it by revelation throough the Holy Spirit.
James you and FLy were making some good points, but to turn and express more in what Calvin and Armnus have to say about man in in his relationship with God, is what God and Paul calls carnal, and I would add cultic to say the least in that, you stand so strongly in your views on what Calvin says, but not much about what you know spiritually as to what God says.
You guys remind me of what Paul had to say to the Corinthians. This is where many arguments start, too many believe in the doctrine that man has put together and, know not much spiriutally about the doctirne Jesus taught and the disciples and Paul preached toward salvation,and God had to say about it all.
I Corinthians chapter 4: And I, brothers could not speak to you as to spiritual people, but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.... verse 4, For when one says, I am of Paul (Calvin) and another say I am of Apollos (Arminius), are you not being carnal? So who is Paul (Calvin), and who is Apollos (Arminus), they are not only mere ministers through whom you were taught the scriptures to believe, as the Lord gave to each one of them the word of God?"
I don't buy stock in Calvin or Arminus, I put all my money on what God has said, because only God's word stands as truth, and not on what Calvin or Arminus has said about what God has said, because a lot of what both of these men have said is according to their own interpretation of God's word, and some of what they have written, does do not stand up against what God says has said.
All I can say is that Calvin planted (because he was first), and Arminus watered( because he took what Calvin had said and written, and based his own theory and doctrines upon what Calvin had said), but God gets the increase and last word.
In fact ,Arminus contradicts somewhat of what Calvin said, so even they weren't in total agreement, because they both were mixing what God said and their own thoughts and theories in matters, that were not based on revelation from the Holy Spiirt., and ONLY God gets the increase.
But as for man being totally depraved I agree with this because God's word has proved this, otherwise, we would not have need for salvation.
Yeah, Fly, there are 144,000 who have not corrupted themselves, yet God doesn't tell us if they are livng on earth among us, or if they are to be born during such time when they will appear.
Thanks SIRjames for pointing out our American ignorance to the fall, church history, theologians, pilgrims and puritans, the reformation, middle ages, the early church fathers and even the apostles themselves.
James replies:
That is not what I said. I said I could show that what I believe was ALSO believed by Christians today, theologians, the puritans, the Reformers, early church fathers, etc.
flyby continues:
Of course that�s why we saved Europe from the nazis so you could teach us ignorant Americans how to be saved.
James replies:
I am American, and I said I was sorry for the rant. And nothing I was talking about was "how to be saved". It was on five points of doctrine, and American Christianity in general.
flyby continues:
Good thing even us dogs can eat scraps from the masters plate.
James replies:
There is no elite class of Christians. We are saved by faith alone through grace alone.
flyby continues:
By the way SIRjames where you like knighted by the Knights of Malta or something similar?
When you walk in the light of the word of God, you will not be full of men's titles and opinions, Those that so love to argue, the freedom of man's will, and total depravity, and total inability are the greatest witness against these lies, used to promote man's own doctrine.
As I said this is growing tiresome. However I will take your first scripture (for no particular reason, it's just first) .
You have taken this verse out of context. Verse 12 clearly defines that Paul is speaking to believers and contrasts them to the unbeliever in verse 14. This is about the benefits of being born again. It is not about mans innate ability or lack of to accept or reject the offer of God through Christ by the Holy Spirit. If we accept, we are verse 12, if we reject, we are verse 14.
Just that simple James.
I am happy to answer any verses one or two at a time. However to cut and paste a mountain of. "Calvinistic" scriptures and expect me to give careful attention to each one is just plain rude. I could be equally rude and cut and paste a mountain of "Arminian" scriptures, but what would that accomplish?
14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
twosparrows said:
You have taken this verse out of context. Verse 12 clearly defines that Paul is speaking to believers and contrasts them to the unbeliever in verse 14. This is about the benefits of being born again. It is not about mans innate ability or lack of to accept or reject the offer of God through Christ by the Holy Spirit. If we accept, we are verse 12, if we reject, we are verse 14.
Just that simple James.
James replies:
I find that bizarre! Of course Paul is speaking to Christians, the entire letter is to the church at Corinth.
But Paul literally says, "the natural person...is NOT ABLE..."
And you turn right around and say "it is not about mans ability"!
It certainly is! In John 6 Jesus says TWICE that "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS....." and the second time he says it, the disciples get discouraged and ask, "well, who CAN be saved then?"
Jesus told Nicodemus that he could NOT even SEE the kingdom of God unless he was born again first.
Rom 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh CANNOT please God.
They have to repent first, and repentance is a GIFT FROM GOD
(Ephesians 2:8,9)
Here is a couple of verses that show that God is the one who must first GRANT repentance, and that fallen mankind's will is enslaved to sin.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 (English Standard Version)
"correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."
twosparrows said:
I am happy to answer any verses one or two at a time. However to cut and paste a mountain of. "Calvinistic" scriptures and expect me to give careful attention to each one is just plain rude. I could be equally rude and cut and paste a mountain of "Arminian" scriptures, but what would that accomplish?
James replies:
Feel free to post the Scriptures Arminians use. If you would like, I can post them for you. But you are right, there are a "Mountain" of Scriptures that Calvinists use, and that SHOULD tell you something!!!
(Arminians have about 12, the "all" verses and the "world" verses.)
I am out of these discussions. No one is going to see anything they don't want to see, and that is normal. Everyone seems to believe what they were first taught. I am the exception to that, being taught by Pentecostals. God bless you all, and remember, God will save you in spite of your bad theology. Whichever side you are on.
