However I do have a problem with the "adjectives" of T.U.L.I.P.
T = "TOTAL" depravity
U = "UNCONDITIONAL" election
L = "LIMITED" atonement
I = "IRRESISTIBLE" grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints
TOTAL, even in Calvinism it does not really mean "total"; it just means man cannot save himself.
UNCONDITIONAL, God being outside the confines of time and space; who are we say He hasn't chosen because of some condition?
LIMITED, to say something is 'limited', it must be quantified and compared. It is like saying Jesus shed a certain quantity of blood and comparing it to the number of sinful people it would cover. Atonement doesn't work that way.
IRRESISTIBLE, by making Grace irresistible, it robs us of the greatest gift we can give God : Love
The above is not meant to "set anyone straight"...lol. This is just how I honestly see it and am certainly open to discussion and other views. However, if you want to "set me straight", that is OK also, just come prepared.
Two, you said: Your last sentence about Gods love is so true, 'it is about who He is, not who we are'. And that is the main reason I have trouble accepting strict Calvinism; "The Nature of God"
I say: That is the whole point Calvin was trying to make. It has nothing to do with us. It is all about God. Modern doctrines have made it all about men and their experiences and feelings. We cannot trust those things unless we check them with the word.
That is the thinking that leads to damnation. I am a Christian. I chose God. I have faith. I sought after God. I have this or that gift. There is another place that has five "I"'s. It is what led Satan to rebel against God.
You shared: That is the whole point Calvin was trying to make. It has nothing to do with us. It is all about God. Modern doctrines have made it all about men and their experiences and feelings. We cannot trust those things unless we check them with the word.
Well I guess that is where Calvin and I differ. The "Cross" is a pretty clear statement that God has made it all about "us", not to mention the multitude of Scripture one could produce supporting that statement. I get the "feeling" that Calvinism is more about God using us to bring Glory to Himself.
To be blunt, not harsh, I do not see God as a "Glory Hound". I do see God making it all about "us" and we making it all about Him. That is the foundation of a perfect relationship. I see God desiring relationship more than glory, why else would he endure the Cross?
*When one pursues glory they sacrifice relationship, when one pursues relationship they gain glory. This goes to heart of the very "Nature of God"
I agree with what T.S. is saying and just posted this in the other thread.
How can it be ALL about God when John 3:16 points to us? "For God so LOVED the world."
Again, parenting is supposed to be a pattern after God the Father and parental, feminine side of him, too. Mother's hearts are the closest thing to God's love on this planet.
Holding me when I cried or got hurt, disciplining and spanking me when necessary, fixing my favorite foods, taking me places, coming to my school events, giving me birthday parties, Christmas gifts, staying up late to make sure I got in okay and on and on.....if they or my mother would have said..."this is all about me..not you." That would have turned me away.
It's His kindness that leads us to repentance. The whole story of Hosea and Gomer displays this love God has for us and the depth He will suffer and sacrifice to bring one stray sheep home.
The prodigal son is another~the father ran to greet his long, lost son. That was all about His glory? Both~His glory can be seen in all of His love for us. He doesn't have to demand it..it show and we will give it back to Him in response to His love toward us.
"We love Him because He first loved us."
I see God as all about us but in a way that draws us to know and love Him, and give Him back what He is...Glory. :applause:
You, got me thinking Joey, about horses...lol...who would of guessed : )
The difference would be : specifically training a horse to perform, focusing on those things that would bring me glory at the next horse show. As opposed to training a horse to perform, while focusing on a loving, trusting relationship with me, and going to a horse show to show what we have. The difference between the two training methods reveals what kind of person I am.
I was referring to the salvation process, I thought that was the subject. Anyway, salvation is ALL of God, and none of me. Let's look again at a much debated scripture.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
This is a scripture that many debate. It says that faith is a gift from God. It is argued that the second part is speaking of grace, not faith, but that not only does not hold up contextually, it does not fit with the rest of scripture. Let's look now at the context.
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
We can see here, just whose children we were, prior to conversion.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Here, we establish that both grace and salvation are from God, through Christ.
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Since it would be impossible for man to claim grace, that cannot be what is being discussed here. So, that leaves salvation and faith. Since we are told above that grace and salvation come through Christ, that must mean that faith is what is being addressed here. Could grace or salvation through Christ be considered a work of man? No, of course not! That only leaves faith as the subject. To keep us from claiming any part in salvation, God even gives us the faith it takes to achieve salvation. Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh�who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands�
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. NKJV
Good point on relationship over works or Spirit over law.
Even though the new law of God trains us, without love it is just that, law and legalism.
Leon, I believe God supplies the measure of faith and grace to enable us to respond to Him, but it is still each person's choice to respond. Free will in all~
In the light of "Unconditional Election" isn't the "salvation process" kinda of a mute point? Those that God elects, God will save, period.
Although, to address your post specifically:
"Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"
In my words, this means to me:
By believing in Gods unmerited favor for us we are saved, this is a gift of God and not of ourselves.
(The twosparrow translation, (TST)....lol!)
Us believing and Gods unmerited favor IS the gift.
It is clear from scripture; The gift of Gods unmerited favor extends to all mankind, however the ability to recognize it and believe seems to be reserved for a few. So enters another doctrine of Calvin; "Irresistible Grace" Does man have the choice to look and believe in Gods unmerited favor as it is revealed to him, or can he look away and chose not to believe?
