Thread: Answering PhillipJohn's Question about the Elect
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Answering PhillipJohn's Question about the Elect
Posted : 23 Jan, 2011 07:03 PM
PhillipJohn asked the Question : : "How does anyone come up with the idea that only the Elect will be saved?"
Well, first off Phillip John does admit in his question that there IS such a think as "the elect" mentioned in Scripture.
I am now going to answer PhillipJohn, using mostly just Bible verses that PLAINLY SHOW that God is sovereign over ALL of His creation and that includes God choosing a people for Himself, just like He choose the Jews, and ONLY them among all the other groups of people on the Earth at that time.
Because of Adam's transgression, his descendants enter the world as
guilty, lost sinners. As fallen creatures, they have no desire to
have fellowship with the creator. Left to their own choices, they
inevitably follow the god of this world. It would have been
perfectly just for God to have left all men in their sin and misery
and to have shown mercy to none. God was under no obligation
whatsoever to provide salvation for anyone. The doctrine of election
declares that God, before the foundation of the world, chose certain
individuals from among the fallen members of Adam's race to be the
objects of His undeserved favor. These and these only , He purposed
to save. God could have chosen to save all men (for he had the power
and authority to do so) or He could have chosen to save none (for He
was under no obligation to save any)--but He did neither. Instead he
chose to save some and to exclude others. His choice of particular
sinners unto salvation was not based upon any foreseen act or
response on the part of those selected, but was based solely on His
own good pleasure and sovereign will. It is not within the
creature's jurisdiction to call into question the justice of of the
creator for not choosing every one to salvation. It is enough to know
that the judge of the earth has done right. It should, however, be
kept in mind that if God had not graciously chosen a people for
himself and sovereignly determined to provide salvation for them and
apply it to them, NONE WOULD BE SAVED. The fact that he did this for
some, to the exclusion of others, is in no way unfair to the latter
group, unless of course one maintains that God was under obligation
to provide salvation for all sinners---a position which the Bible
utterly rejects.
The act of election ITSELF saved no one; what it did was to mark out
certain individuals for salvation. Consequently, the doctrine of
election must not be divorced from the doctrines of human guilt,
redemption, and regeneration or else it will be distorted and mis-
represented. In other words, if it is to be understood correctly,
the Father's act of election must be related to the redeeming work of
the Son, who gave himself to save the elect and to the renewing work
of the Spirit who brings the elect to faith in Christ!
A. General statements showing that God has an elect people, that He
pre-destined them to salvation, and thus to eternal life.
Deuteronomy 10:14,15: Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and
the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it; yet THE LORD
SET HIS HEART IN LOVE upon your fathers and CHOSE their descendants
after them, you above all peoples, as at this day.
Psalm 33:12: Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people
whom he has CHOSEN as his heritage!
Psalm 65:4: Blessed is he whom thou dost CHOOSE and bring near,
to dwell in thy courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of
thy house, thy holy temple!
Haggai 2:23: "On that day, says the Lord of hosts, I will take you O
Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, says the Lord, and make
you like a signet ring; for I have CHOSEN you, says the Lord of
hosts."
Matthew 11:27: "...no one knows the Father except the Son and any
one whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him."
Matthew 22:14: "For many are called, but few are CHOSEN."
Matthew 24:22,24,31: And if those days had not been shortened, no
human being would be saved; but for the sake of the ELECT those days
will be shortened...For false Christs and false prophets will arise
and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible
even the ELECT... and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet
call, and the will gather HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end
of the earth to the other.
Luke 18:7: And will not God vindicate HIS ELECT, who cry out to him
day and night?
Romans 8:28-30: WE know that in everything God works for Good with
those that love him, who are CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.
for those whom he foreknew he also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the
image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many
brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those
whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he
also glorified.
Romans 8:33: Who shall bring any charge against God's ELECT?
Romans 11:28: As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God, for
your sake; but as regards ELECTION they are beloved for the sake of
their forefathers.
Colossians 3:12: Put on then, as God's CHOSEN ONES, holy and
beloved, compassion, kindness,...
1 Thessalonians 5:9: For God has not DESTINED US for wrath, BUT TO
OBTAIN SALVATION through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to
further the faith of GOD'S ELECT and their knowledge of the truth
which accords with godliness...
1 Peter 1:1,2: To the exiles of the dispersion...CHOSEN and DESTINED
by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obediance to Jesus
Christ and for sprinkling with his blood...
1 Peter 2:8,9...For they stumble because they disobey the word, as
they were DESTINED to do. But you are a CHOSEN RACE, a royal
priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the
wonderful deeds of him who CALLED you out of the darkness into his
marvelous light.
Revelation 17: 14: "They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb
will conquer them, for he is Lord of Lords and King of Kings, and
those with him are CALLED and CHOSEN and faithful."
B. Before the foundation of the world, God chose particular
individuals unto salvation. His selection was NOT BASED ON ANY
FORESEEN REPONSE OR ACT PERFORMED BY THOSE CHOSEN. Faith and good
works are the result, not the cause of God's choice.
1. God did the choosing.
Mark 13:20: And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human
being would be saved; but for the sake of THE ELECT, WHOM HE CHOSE,
he shortened the days.
2. God's choice was made before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4: Even as he CHOSE us in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF
THE WORLD, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
(see: 2 Thess. 1:4 and 2 Thess. 2:13 quoted below)
3. God chose particular individuals unto salvation-their names were
written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8: And all those who dwell on the earth will worship
it, every one whose name has not been WRITTEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION
OF THE WORLD in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.
Revelation 17:8: "...and the dwellers on earth whose NAMES have not
been WRITTEN in the book of life FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD,
will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to
come."
4. God's choice was not based upon any foreseen merit residing in
those whom He chose, nor was it based on any foreseen good works
performed by them.
Romans 9:11-13: Though they were NOT YET BORN AND HAD DONE NOTHING
EITHER GOOD OR BAD, in order that God's purpose of ELECTION might
continue, NOT BECAUSE OF WORKS but because of his CALL, she was told,
"The elder will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved,
but Esau I hated."
Romans 9:16: So it depends NOT UPON MAN'S WILL OR EXERTION, but upon
God's MERCY.
Romans 10:20: "...I have been found by those who did not seek me; I
have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."
1 Corinthians 1:27-29: God CHOSE what is FOOLISH in the world to
shame the wise, God CHOSE what is WEAK in the world to shame the
strong, God CHOSE what is LOW and DESPISED in the world, even things
that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, SO THAT NO HUMAN
BEING MIGHT BOAST IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD.
2 Timothy 1:9: ....who saved us and called us with a holy calling not
in virtue of OUR WORKS but in virtue of HIS OWN PURPOSE and the GRACE
which he gave us in Christ Jesus AGES AGO.
5. Good works are the result, not the ground, of predestination.
Ephesians 2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
FOR GOOD WORKS, which God PREPARED BEFOREHAND, that we should walk in
them.
Ephesians 1:12: We who first hoped in Christ have been DESTINED AND
APPOINTED to live for the praise of his glory.
John 15:16: You did not choose me, but I CHOSE YOU and APPOINTED YOU
that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide;
so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
6. God's choice was not based upon foreseen faith. Faith is the
result and therefore the evidence of God's election, not the cause or
ground of His choice.
Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and
glorified the word of God; and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal
life BELIEVED.
Acts 18:27: ...he greatly helped those who THROUGH GRACE HAD BELIEVED.
Philippians 1:29: For it has been GRANTED to you that for the sake
of Christ you should not only BELIEVE in him but also suffer for his
sake.
Philippians 2:12,13: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always
obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my
absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; FOR GOD
IS AT WORK IN YOU, BOTH TO WILL AND TO WORK FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE.
1 Thessalonians 1:4,5: For WE KNOW, brethren beloved by god, that he
has chosen you; FOR OUR GOSPEL CAME TO YOU not only in word, but also
IN POWER and IN THE HOLY SPIRIT and WITH FULL CONVICTION.
2 Thessalonians 2:13,14: ...GOD CHOSE YOU FORM THE BEGINNING TO BE
SAVED, THROUGH sanctification by the Spirit and BELIEF IN THE TRUTH.
To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the
glory of our Lord Jesus Christ
James 2:5:...Has not God CHOSEN those who are poor in the world TO BE
RICH IN FAITH and HEIRS OF THE KINGDOM which he has promised to those
who love him?
7. It is by faith and good works that one confirms his calling and
election.
2 Peter 1:5-11: For this very reason make every effort to supplement
your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with
self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness
with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and
brotherly affection with love.......Therefore, brethren, be the more
zealous TO CONFIRM YOUR CALL AND ELECTION, for if you do this you
will never fall........
C. Election is not salvation but is UNTO salvation. Just as the
president elect does not become the president of the united states
UNTIL he is inaugurated, those chosen unto salvation are not saved
UNTIL they are regenerated by the Spirit and justified by faith in
Christ.
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought.
THE ELECT OBTAINED IT, but the rest were hardened.
2 Timothy 2:10: Therefore I endure everything for the sake of
THE ELECT, that they also MAY OBTAIN THE SALVATION which in Christ
Jesus goes with eternal glory.
From Romans 16:7 it is clear that men are not actually "in Christ"
until their conversion.
D. Election was based on the sovereign, distinguishing mercy of Al-
mighty God. It was not on man's will but God's will that determined
which sinners would be shown mercy and saved.
Exodus 33:19: "...I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and
will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."
Deuteronomy 7:6,7: For you are a people holy to the LOrd your God;
the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession
out of all the peoples of the earth. It was not because you were
more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love upon
you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples.
Matthew 20:15: "Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what
belongs to me?..."
Romans 9:10-24.......I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I
will have compassion on whom I have compassion, So it depends not
upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.....He has mercy
upon whomever he wills...Has the potter no right over the
clay...Vessels of mercy which he has prepared beforehand...
( one of my favorite Christian rock bands is "Jars of Clay"!)
See also Romans 11:4-6
Romans 11:33-36
Ephesians 1:5
E. The doctrine of Election is but a part of the much broader
Biblical doctrine of God's absolute sovereignty. The Scriptures not
only teach that God predestined certain individuals unto eternal
life, but that all events, both great and small, come about as the
result of God's eternal decree. The Lord God rules over heaven and
earth with absolute control; NOTHING COMES TO PASS APART FROM HIS
ETERNAL PURPOSE.
1 Chronicles 29:10-12: Therefore David blessed the Lord in the
presence of all the assembly; and David said; "Blessed art thou O
Lord, the God of Israel our Father, for ever and ever.
Thine, O Lord, is the greatness, and power, and glory, and the
victory, and the majesty; for all that is in the heavens and in the
earth is thine, thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted
above all. Both riches and honor come from thee, and THOU RULEST
OVER ALL. IN thy hand are power and might; and in thy hand it is to
make great and to give strength to all.
JOB 42:1,2: Then Job answered the Lord: "I know that thou canst do
all things, and that no purpose of thine can be thwarted."
Psalm 115:3: Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases.
Psalm 135:6: Whatever the Lord pleases he does, in heaven and on
earth, in the sea and all deeps.
Isaiah 14:24,27: The Lord of hosts has sworn: "As I have planned,
so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand....For
the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?"
Isaiah 46:9-11: "Remember the former things of old; for I am God,
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not
yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand and I will accomplish my
purpose, calling a bird of prey from the East, the man of my counsel
from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it. "
Jeremiah 32:17: Ah Lord God! It is thou who hast made the heavens and
the earth by thy great power and by thy outstretched arm! nothing is
too hard for thee.
Daniel 4:35: All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as
nothing; and he does according to his will in the host of heaven and
among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say
to him "What doest thou?"
Matthew 19:26: "...with God all things are possible."
Jesus said, "No on can come to me lest my Father draw him".
Why would Jesus make this statement if everyone was drawn? Instead, He would have said, "My Father draws ALL men to Me". Jesus was not trying to trick people, He was explaining election. He also said, "You did not choose me, I chose you".
Using the Jews as a analogy of election is appropriate, however to say "only Jews were chosen" to be the nation of Israel; this just does not agree with scripture.
You have explained your position very well, using scripture to support your position. However some scriptures are either taken out of context or simply do not support your position. But rather than go through them one by one, I just as soon 'cut to the chase'.
Yes, it is scriptural to say there are "elect", however it is not scriptural to say how and why. This is where you go beyond scripture with declarations that are not supported by scripture.
James replies:
Romans 9 Specifically says, in great detail, that God chose whom he would have mercy on, and that it was his choice alone, and NOT because of anything a person would do.
Twosparrows continues:
Here in lies the obstacle this position fails to address: "Time". God is outside time, He neither 'foreknows' or 'afterknows', He just simply knows. The Bible is 100% true, however it is written within the constraints of linear time so that man can comprehend. For us our lives and the entire creation is viewed as a movie, to God it is viewed as one picture.
To be to the point : Yes there are elect, however we do not know the criteria God uses to choose the elect. It could be anything from 'duck duck goose' to those who 'respond in faith'.
James replies:
Well, Good does nothing except by the counsel of His own wisdom, so, "duck, duck., goose" is out!
And we have ten verses of Scripture that say that the ONLY people who WILL respond are those the Holy Spirit has ALREADY made alive!
Twosparrows continues:
And don't even get me started on complete depravity and limited atonement!
James replies:
1. it is called "total depravity" or "total inability".
This means that because of The Fall, sin has effected EVERY PART of our being, INCLUDING OUR WILL, so that it is no longer free, but enslaved to sin. Total depravity does NOT mean we are as bad as we can be, but rather that the Fall has effected every part of us, or the totality of our being.
2. Limited Atonement means that Jesus died specifically for the people God has given Him, and Jesus said this IN DETAIL in
Am I seeing this wrong? : Your first answer says election is unconditional, it is based only on Gods mercy. Your second answer says election is based on our response.
Why call it "Total Depravity' when it is really "Total Inability"?
Two you could say it this way, the doctrine men does not agree with the light that comes from the word of God. We know the word of God shows us otherwise.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
This is old testament, and the old testament is full of men and women that did just what this parable teaches.
Kl you always and mean always say that one does not provide scripture, and of course when the scripture response is given you totally ignore and Have the audacity to say scripture, disagrees with you. My response to you is, scripture is the truth, but every man has the ability and the responsibility to agree or disagree with scripture.
You by your actions do not agree with what Jesus taught here, and the practice is to take scripture out of context and make a doctrine of it, that is lying, that is manipulation, that is corrupting the word of God.
For example:Romans3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
How hard is it to find the origin of the scriptures quoted?
How hard is it to find those that sought they lord?
How hard is it to prove they have not all gone out of the way?
How hard is to find those that the word of God calls righteous?
Yes this is a place and time in scripture that context is the answer.
Question is will you believe, will you have ears to hear, and eyes to see.
Your own scriptures prove my point. This scripture you dismiss originates in the Psalms. For that you dismiss it, yet Paul uses it here to not only reaffirm it's validity, but to explain that it applies to everyone.
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
Who was under sin? ALL! All means all, that is what Paul is telling them! This scripture does not just apply to the Jews, but to ALL.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Whose faith is it?
Now, are you going to continue denying the word of God and practicing a false doctrine? Or are you going to believe the bible?
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Ask God to humble you and show you the truth. Once that pride is gone, you can be taught by the Holy Spirit. It is keeping you blinded and causing you to hate. These things are not of God...
Perhaps you know more about each other than I know about each of you. None of what I know of each of you makes me think either of you is a unknowing agent of Satan...lol. However I do see that is what each of you imply to the other. I do think we believe in the same God, and are saved by the same Grace, yet see things differently. God is so multifaceted that how could we not all see him a bit different, especially since we are all from different perspectives ourselves. It is another reason the Scriptures are referred to as being "alive", because they speak different things to each of us at different times. It is beneficial for me to do my best to see things from both of your perspectives and apply them to my perspective. After all, how else am I going to get a "3-D" picture of God!
