Now who woulda thunk I could have got those two words in a title? lol.
Ok, I didn't want to hijack twosparrows topic.
Earlier I posted in the Moral Standards category asking about marijuana use. My point, and no one seemed to refute it, is that it is not mentioned in the bible and would probably be a little difficult to make a case against it. Or at least you are going to have to use some indirect references and form a conceptual arguement.
Now Matthew 5:32 clearly states that unless for a case of marriage unfaithfulness, a person can not get remarried without commiting adultry.
So here is my observation. On marijuna use, people automatically gasp at the idea and say it is wrong without a clear forbidence in scripture. Yet in scripture, from a plan reading, it says remarriage is wrong, yet people find ways to formulate conceptual arguements to say it is ok to remarry.
I am not trying to cast legalism or burdens on anyone. I only hold my views about divorce for myself, and don't try to convince anyone else. And my point is not even really about marijuana or divorce. It is more about how in one area we go out of our way to say something is wrong and in another area go out of our way to say something is ok.
I recently found out my brother was an alcoholic. This is the same as pot in my view. Yes, the bible does discuss everything. Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, that addresses this because we are to take care of our bodies.
With in reason. We can commit a sin against our body. That is to damage our body. Paul addresses this.
Will 11 verses count as bible evidence against smoking marijuana?
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Titus 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Titus 2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
I don�t know about you but back when I used to smoke marijuana I was not sober. But with that said the bible is here to help us strengthen our relationship with God and to help us edify one another.
Pro 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
Just be careful who you beat over the head with the bible.
Thanks for the post. There was a thread about actual marijuana use in the other Moral Standards category. What I was getting at here, is that you had to use a verse about "sober". You had to formulate an argument. I'm not saying it is a wrong arguement, just saying the actual topic is not address. This is what a lot of people do, say something is wrong based on a conceptual arguement.
Yet a verse about divorce, like in Matthew, where Jesus clearly says it is wrong to get remarried, unless the other was unfaithful, causes both to become adulterers, people try to argue away. They try to form arguments against what is clearly stated, so that they can justify remarriage.
That was my point. In both cases they are forming arguements to justify the position they want or believe.
This is your own opinion when you say, 'Matthew 5:32 clearly states that unless for a case of marriage unfaithfulness, a person can not get remarried without committing adultery."
First, it is anything but clear. There are several views on divorce and remarriage and what you suggest is a minority opinion. Second, it defies common sense that marriage/ adultery can co-exist as the same thing at the same time.
And Third, the unfaithful spouse, adulterer or sex addict probably needs marriage more just to be healed. Telling him to remain single makes no sense unless God gives him that gift.
The bottom line is how do you serve God best. Does your spouse turn you away from serving God like they did with King Solomon.Or does your spouse bring out the best in you.
Does smoking pot make you too lazy to go to church and help other people. Or does medical marijuana keep your food down while on your chemo therapy?
Will we ever know how many marriages have suffered because they were denied access to medical marijuana to help cope with the rough spots all married couples go through from time to time?
�Furthermore it has been said, �Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.� 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality[e] causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
Sorry, but how is that not clear? A plan reading of the verse makes a point. I am not trying to project this on anyone, this is what I use for my standard, I am just commenting that to come up with any other view, you have to do some tap dancing.
In Matthew 5,6 and 7 Jesus is teaching on the spirit of the law as opposed to the legalistic keeping of the law. It baffles me when people take this teaching and interpret it legally. I respect your personal belief on this matter, and respect that you don't preach it.... However you must surely realize you offer this yoke to any woman interested in you.
I for one do judge marijuana use and divorce/remarriage both by scripture. It is just as clear in scripture that the misuse of marijuana, is equally as wrong as a misuse of divorce and remarriage.
I attempt in no way to interpret Gods will for you, however I do not have to tap dance to interpret for the scripture for me. It is clear that divorce is reserved only for the most extreme cases. If a woman gets divorced because she fell out of love, or her husband was verbally abusive, etc... I agree she would be committing adultery by marrying another if her spouse was still single and alive. In such a case I believe Gods heart is for repentance and reconciliation.
The bible always gives us answers, but if we read it without the Holy Spirit guiding us, it becomes a rule book with no room for grace.
Divorce and remarriage has been interpreted and twisted since the days of the beginning. Jesus was addressing a Jewish, male dominated society who married within the Mosaic marriage covenant law, when he gave these answers.
The questions the pharisees were asking were intended to trap Jesus. He answered them with a Mosaic law answer in Matthew 19: 1-10.
Yet, Jesus still acknowledged divorce and remarriage as civil law when he spoke to the woman at the well~He called them husbands in addressing the Samaritan woman. He did not condemn her for those sins or even address them. (Cited from a couple of sites that are my opinion, also)
John 4:17-18- "I have no husband," she replied. Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18. The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."
21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." 25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26 Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
Paul addressed a whole different problem in the Church and was talking to Jews and Gentiles after the Cross and Resurrection.
1 Corinthians 7:10-16
Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
But if the unbeliever departs [the word Paul used here was an official term for divorce on the certificate of that day], let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases (1 Cor. 7:15).
The fact that Paul made the desertion of a believer by an unbeliever grounds for divorce, while Jesus gave the only valid reason as "sexual immorality," does not put him into conflict with his Master. He was addressing a different situation--a mixed marriage. Jesus, addressing Jews under the law, had in mind marriages between Jews--marriages within the covenant community. Paul confronted a different problem--marriages between believers and nonbelievers.
From the words of Jesus in Matthew 19 and from Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:15, we have found only two grounds upon which God sanctions divorce: sexual immorality and the desertion of a believer by an unbeliever. This raises the question, "Is divorce wrong under all other circumstances? What about abuse? Must a woman continue to live with a man who is beating her and sexually abusing her?
There is no verse in the Bible specifically stating that a woman in an abusive marriage has a right to obtain a divorce.
God in His compassion sometimes allows His people to set aside strict conformity to certain rules He has given. He did this on one occasion when David and his men were hungry. He allowed them to eat consecrated bread in the tabernacle--bread which He had declared holy (1 Sam. 21:1-6).
God also did this with His Sabbath rules. He had commanded the Israelites to keep the seventh day as a day of absolute rest--even for domestic animals (Ex. 20:8-11). He forbade the kindling of a fire to cook food (Ex. 35:1-3). The importance of these rules was seen when He ordered that a man be stoned for gathering sticks on the Sabbath (Num. 15:32-36). It was to be a day of absolute rest!
Yet Jesus healed on the Sabbath. When rebuked by His adversaries, He reminded them that even a legalistic Jew worked to free an animal that had fallen into a pit (Mt. 12:9-13). The whole point of the law was to protect man and God
I have seen women beaten and bloodied, knives pulled to their throats, kids deathly afraid of a drunken dad, (Christian men too) that feel they cannot divorce because of this "heavy" law in the bible.
The Old Testament divorce laws were a merciful provision. God hated divorce then just as He does now. But He preferred divorce to the abuse of wives and mothers.
So we should have the same heart today and guide someone in this situation, through much seeking of the Holy Spirit, grace and mercy.
Sorry for the length, but it's hard to address this complicated subject with a few words. :purpleangel:
OK, tap dancing 101. Give her a divorce certificate if you divorce your wife? Does that seem a little redundant? Whoever divorces his wife needs to give her a divorce? I'm sorry that seems confusing to me. If you read the King James it says whoever "puts away" his wife let him give her a divorce (certificate). The clear reading should be "put away" is not the same level of relationship as giving a divorce certificate which allows her to remarry.What if you don't give the certificate? This might not seem relevant except it has been the practice of Jewish men for thousands of years. They even have a name for the wife who has been put away but not granted a divorce certificate. She is called Agunah or chained wife,
"Agunah literally translated as anchored is a halachic term referring to a woman who is chained to a marriage due to the disappearance of her husband or his unconfirmed demise. The meaning has been broadened to include the woman who is unable to procure her freedom from a recalcitrant husband who refuses to grant a Get, the majority of the women chained to their marriage are those that are refused a Get. Google Agunah for more.
Even the Jewish marriage had it's legalism and seemingly unclear teachings on the topic. But Jesus took us back to the beginning, to the relationship not the legalism. :rocknroll:
The widely used verse in Malachi, where God seems to state that He "hates divorce", is mistranslated. What God hates is literally "the putting out" of a woman.
Putting out is altogether different than divorce in Jewish culture. A man would permanently kick his wife out, denying her the Jewish divorce certificate. This woman would still be legally married, but with no home. Her dowry and children would be retained by the husband. She would have already surrendered her virginity to him. She would be ineligible to remarry, since technically, she was still legally bound to her husband. Further, her culture would label her as an adulteress since she did not have a valid divorce certificate. And this lady couldn't just rent an apartment and get a job teaching kindergarten - there was no place for a put out woman in Jewish culture of that day except prostitution. Since the marriages were most often arranged, this whole horrible chain of events would have been completely out of her control.
The husband, however, was free to marry again and to do this as much as he liked. That is why Moses required a divorce certificate to be given... so that the marriage was legally, fairly, and religiously terminated and the woman would be free to remarry and go on with life.
For more info about this topic, do a search on the word "agunah". That means "chained women". The act of putting a woman out is still happening and today there are 1000s of "chained women" in Israel! A Jewish divorce certificate is so valuable that often after a man puts out a woman, he will legally obtain the certificate and then sell it to the highest bidder. "Agunah" is one of the greatest problems faced by orthodox Judaism today.
All over the Bible we have ignorantly and clumsily translated "put out" as "divorce". This has caused many errant doctrines to be formed and made a terrible mess out of millions of people's lives. The toll in human suffering because of our ignorance is overwhelming. The Bible simply does not say that God hates divorce. It says that God hates the putting away.
In the New Testament, Jesus continues to address this cruel breach of human rights. Nearly all of the verses translated "divorce" in the Gospels actually say "put away". It is a completely different situation which we have no equivalent for. Knowing this makes a world of difference. For instance, many believe that Christian remarriage is adultery. But Jesus did not say that if a man marries a divorced woman, he would be committing adultery. He said that if a man married a "put out" woman, he would be committing adultery. This is because she was technically still married! In Israel, putting a woman out is a devastating, intentional ruination of a woman's life. God still hates it.
We have mangled the meaning of what is going on here and used it to place people under a different type of legalism. The worst result of this mistake is that when a marriage does break down, people will often believe that God rejects them, and they will lose their faith just when they need it the most.
There are myriads of reasons why marriage relationships break down. God hates it when a heavy, inflexible grid of legalism is imposed on people and they are broken and turn away from Him as a result. It is obvious that marriages are intended to be lifelong and that every attempt should be made to reconcile and to recapture the first love that founded the relationship. But in this imperfect world, God's provision of divorce is sometimes vital, and can be lifesaving.
