I have noticed Christians on this forum have different beliefs according to HOW they read the Bible. ie : HOW they determine truth from the scriptures.
I have noticed everything from 100% Spirit/spirit led interpretations to saying only a church can interpret scripture and every thing in between. I believe any ONE way excluding all others will lead to error. Therefore I pose three questions, feel free to answer one or all.
1) How do you read, interpret, glean truth, ie : How do YOU know what the Bible passage really means?
2) What is the correct way to interpret scripture?
3) The Bible is sometimes referred to as "living". What does this mean to you?
If any one Church, including the Catholic Church as you believe, has the answers and interpretations to all of life's more difficult questions and to everything written in Scripture, why do we even need a Bible? Why do we even need an intimate relationship with God if we can't trust Him to provide us an answer directly without having to go through another person or Church each time? Is it the Catholic belief that we as Believers cannot approach God or go boldly before His throne to petition an answer or something we seek in Scripture, because they [the Catholic Church] is the "Final Court of Appeal" and is the only one who can keep us on the right path? Because the Catholic Church holds all the answers, therefore seek those answers from her instead of God? I just can't wrap my mind around one fallible entity holding 100% truth with 100% accuracy of Scripture because it was interpreted by this one entity. It doesn't matter which Church it is.
1) How do you read, interpret, glean truth, ie : How do YOU know what the Bible passage really means?
If I find a confusing verse, I search for other verses to clear it up. The bible doesn't contradict itself, so there is a general conclusion that has to be reached. If I find verses that repeatedly and clearly say the opposite of what I thought the verse in question meant, then my preconceived view of the verse in question is wrong and I need to look closer.
2) What is the correct way to interpret scripture?
By comparing the bible scriptures to each other with honesty/humility.
3) The Bible is sometimes referred to as "living". What does this mean to you?
God is always revealing "light" to us as we study and grow. It is not necessary to have all truth to be "saved", but I think we do need to be growing in spirit and truth.
It all starts with The Bible�it is from Scripture that Christ Speaks to us. Trying to be a Christian with out The Bible is like trying to fix your car without a manual. The Catholic Church is there to ensure that you do not alter that manual or Misinterpret it.
As for God answering your petitions, God can do whatever He chooses. If He so chooses that is between God and yourself. The Catholic Church has never kept anyone away from God and She encourages a Personal Relationship with Our Lord.
Christ started His Church simply so that we would not have what we now have (look around this Forum) Christians that have their own interpretation of Scripture and what God wants us to do. Ask yourself this question
��when I have a question about what Scripture says, who do I go to�whom do I trust as having the final say?�
Is it your own personal interpretation or some other person or the Church that was given the Full Interpretation and Complete Deposit of Faith? The Church that Christ called His Bride?
Margo,
What you suggest is an excellent way to read Scripture. There are many scholars that do exactly what you�ve described. Why then do we have so many different �views� of Scripture and its interpretation? The writers of Sacred Scripture knew exactly what they wanted to convey. They �Orally� taught this to others. They �Orally� answered any and all questions concerning what they believed and wrote. This Oral Revelation combined with Sacred Scripture is what The Church uses to discern Scripture�s meaning and Truths. Are we to question those that wrote Scripture as to what they intended?
It�s been 200 years since the writing of The Constitution. We have books and letters that speak to what the Founding Fathers intended with their words. We have no problem Interpreting this Document because of the preponderance of such writings and sayings that have been Preserved Intact.
The Church knows the Intent of The Writers because She Knew the Writers. The Writers were Teachers in The Church.
If you were to come a cross a diary (say 200 years old) with the sentence
�I never said that you had stolen the money!�
Not knowing the intent of the writer you could come up with several �interpretations� (meanings).
The writer could mean�it was someone else that said it (not them) (I)�
Or
They said something entirely different. �(said) or
They said someone else stole the money �(you) or
They never said that money was stolen�but rather it was just �borrowed� �(stole) or
And finally�they never said it was money but rather it was a PIG! �(money)
Not being there and then reading something that has been translated into another language and not having someone or Authority to correct mistakes�well�leaves much room for Error.
I would like to answer another part of your question.
Anything �Living� breathes in and out. It is not static but dynamic. Anything �Living� interacts with its environment. Scripture was Alive when it was Written and it Lives today. It belongs to no man�it belongs to God. It is God�s Gift to us and next to Jesus Christ I consider it the Greatest Gift God has given us.
A Gift this precious should be protected and guarded and kept as Pristine a condition as when God gave it to us. God gave us Sacred Scripture as a Standard to attain�as a Means Test to be given�as a road map (if you will).
Man has found that he cannot reach this High Standard�that it is something that he cannot attain�so instead of trying harder and working harder � man has instead Lowered those Standards and interpreted Scripture to suit him.
�If I find verses that repeatedly and clearly say the opposite of what I thought the verse in question meant, then my preconceived view of the verse in question is wrong and I need to look closer.�
�There in lie the rub�
I always compare what I think Scripture is saying to what The Church has known for 2000 years.
Yes�Scripture �speaks� to me and there are many times that I will reread a verse and get something quite new and insightful. I just trust my Church to have the truth.
You write:
�It is not necessary to have all truth to be "saved", but I think we do need to be growing in spirit and truth.�
Christ Promised that His Church would be here when He Returns and that
��not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.�
Matthew 5:17-19 (New International Version 1984, �1984)
His Church still has All The Truth (the Pillar and Foundation of Truth) and She will keep them Safe and Guarded until His Return.
My answer for the first two would have to be "with humility" and not assuming that what I already "know" or have been taught are right. If I had taken things for fact from previous teachings, compared the Bible against them, and finding incongruity had decided to stick with what I knew, I think that would be very wrong.
As for the Word being living, I don't think I've studied/know enough about the Bible to have a good handle on what the Bible means by that. From what I can see, the Bible seems living by how much impact it has. It can save people, it can lose people, interpretations of it can cause wars and destroy nations. It is a very dynamic thing and abuse of it is incredibly dangerous, as the respect of it can be incredibly beneficial.
Arch, I do not deny that there are different interpretations of scripture. You find that everywhere, no matter what church, and yes, including the Catholic church. You mention that you can know what the intent of a writer was based on oral tradition, that is what was passed down orally. Taking your position, I can ask you how do you know for sure that the catholic church knows the correct intent of scripture? In fact, there would be more cause for error in oral tradition. If something is spoken over the course of 2000 years, how many ways can that message be corrupted?
But even more so, I can say that the oral tradition is in error because it simply does not match with scripture. For instance, if the Bible says I am saved by grace through faith alone, and the church is telling me I am saved by faith and works, well, that goes against scripture, which is clear in black and white.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness - 2 Tim 3:16
Just because a message or interpretation is old does not mean it is correct. If something clearly contradicts scripture � adds to it, diminishes it, or changes it, it is not Biblical and is to be rejected.
Let�s not forget that we have an enemy (Satan) who from the beginning of time has wanted nothing more than to confuse God�s people. Is it any wonder that his first lie was an attack on God�s word? He said �Did God really say�?� I have no doubt that he has been at it among all of us since then.
That is why there is confusion. Because of our sin, and our enemy, our pride and our imperfect world. Because many times no matter what denomination you are in, people rely on �what they have always heard� to be true as fact. (sound familiar?) So how to interpret scripture? First, we have the Holy Spirit within who helps us discern truth from error. Second, we use that discernment in careful study. We can come to understand intent by knowing such things as history, Jewish culture, etc. and the number of methods I mentioned. We can take in messages from trusted Christians and scholars who do the same.
Your question: Should we question what we hear? What the church says? My answer is yes! While we hear teaching with respect, we must never forget that the ultimate last word is the truth in the word of God. Like TwoSparrows said very well, we are to be like the Beareans, who searched the scripture to see if what they heard from Paul was so�and I mean that in any case, no matter who is speaking.
��not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.�
Hey, wait a second...so you guys are going to change the "day of rest" back, stop bowing to statues, stop forbidding priests/nuns to marry, and focus on the bible instead of dusty old guys that thought they were infallible? Sweet! Sarcasm intended!:winksmile: Catholics haven't guarded the truth much at all. They've changed it and reinterpreted it at will, which would be fine, protestants are guilty of it too, but Catholics claim to have never done so and claim that they're infallible. And don't start the "they don't! they don't!" thing. They did. "Oh, well they were just fallible men..." *poof* There goes your argument. The Catholic church is, and always has been full of fallible men. Claiming to be holier than everyone else isn't working. The bible is the only source of truth. My catholic grandma just made a amazing statement not too long ago.
"I think that most of the things we(Catholics) do is so prideful... just to show off. I'm learning that it's where your heart is that matters...don't tell my priest:prayingf:"
��in fact, there would be more cause for error in oral tradition. If something is spoken over the course of 2000 years, how many ways can that message be corrupted�
Orally was the way The Church (The Body of Christ) was Taught. When Scripture was put into a Canon and placed into The Bible around the 4th Century�The Church had enough letters and books that had been written fighting Heresy and The Fathers and Doctors had enough Knowledge of The Faith that a Catechism could be written and it was this Full Deposit of faith that was used to Authenticate Scripture. It is silly to think that all of this has been passed on just by word of mouth.
You also write:
��But even more so, I can say that the oral tradition is in error because it simply does not match with scripture. For instance, if the Bible says I am saved by grace through faith alone, and the church is telling me I am saved by faith and works, well, that goes against scripture, which is clear in black and white.�
The accurate Catholic position on salvation is Catholics believe that we are saved by God�s Grace. Without God� Grace that first moves us, both to believe in Him & Christ and to obey His commandments, we cannot reach our salvation. The teaching that Grace precedes all our actions in relation to our salvation was declared by the Catholic Church in
Council of Orange in 529 AD and
reaffirmed in the Council of Trent in 1547.
If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says,
�What have you that you did not receive?� [1 Corinthians 4:7], and, �But by the grace of God I am what I am� [1 Corinthians 15:10].
Canon VI of Council of Orange
For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,
Council of Trent, Decree on Justification XVI
If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.
Council of Trent, Canon III of the Decree on Justification
�Let�s not forget that we have an enemy (Satan) who from the beginning of time has wanted nothing more than to confuse God�s people.�
You have to ask yourself��which would the dark one rather have�One Church (United) (which was the case for over 1500 years) or 38,000 different churches? Which would you say was a triumph for him?
Margo�you say you have The Holy Spirit to help you discern truth. Then why is it that you all have different interpretations? I have what was given The Church by Christ Himself. I have what The Writers of Scripture said as to their intended meaning in what they wrote. You mention Chuck�even he has said that sometimes he does not �hear� The Holy Spirit correctly. What of then?
I have no intention of answering your last post as it is addressed to Margo, from what I have seen of her posts she is more than capable of fielding her own questions. But since you addressed me by name in the post allow me to clarify acouple things.
1) Your assertion that there are 38,000 different churches plus the One true Catholic church is false. How many times must you be told Steve? Are you not listening? Why can you not hear? MUST I SPEAK LOUDER SO YOU CAN HEAR?.....We Christians believe there is only ONE Church, ie : The Body of Christ as taught throughout scripture, a church that transcends the confines of race, gender, social status, time, nationality, and DENOMINATIONS. CAN YOU SEE THE BIG LETTERS STEVE?, in case you missed : THE TRUE CHURCH TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE IS NOT CONFINED IN ANY ONE DENOMINATION. This is what SCRIPTURE TEACHES. You don't believe scripture? Some how I think you still haven't heard. *sigh*
2) You mentioned that I said that I always don't hear the Holy Spirit correctly and you have seemed to focus on it like a crack addict focuses on a rock of cocaine. Because you don't listen you have a distorted view of what I said. Learning to listen to the Holy Spirit is like learning to listen in a relationship, the process brings you closer and closer to the one you are trying to hear, you begin to know the person more and more, and hear better and better, recognizing His voice more and more. Isn't that in the Bible Steve : My sheep will know MY voice, if you note it doesn't say my sheep will hear my church's voice or my vicar's voice, Jesus said : "my voice"! ARE YOU LISTENING STEVE SO I DON'T HAVE TO KEEP REPEATING MYSELF OVER AND OVER AND OVER......and over. * big sigh* * forehead resting on the keyboard*
