Personally, I had spent my whole life at school in a Catholic school, had myself attending the sermons at the Catholic Church, and that was before I converted to be a Christian. My question is, why the Catholics think that Mary is different with other chosen women? For example, if Mary said no to carry Jesus in her belly, then it might be the next chosen woman named Martha who would carry Him, and that Martha would now fill in the Novena and hail prayer, not "Hail Mary" but "Hail Martha"? This is just a question out of curiosity, I've asked my Catholic friends about this and they all answer the same as "Mary is the mother of Jesus", then I replied back as "Martha could be the mother of Jesus", they didn't reply back. Could someone here give me a scripture on why there are Novena prayer and Hail Mary prayer?
I do adore Mary as she has been one of the greatest and blessed woman at all time - she was totally the woman of God with huge faith within her, but I can't find anywhere in the Bible about we should pray Novena or Hail Mary prayer.
PS. Yeah.. You guys can discuss it here rather than "messing" around in Barefoot's topic lol
Where do you read that I said that I �trust in Mary for my Salvation?�
I �twisted� the word of God? Please explain how? The Old Testament points to The New and The New fulfills The Old. It�s neat how God does that.
Chuck, explain why you �sigh� because of my statement about Catholic being Christians. Are you saying that Catholics are not Christians?
Chuck�read what you write (I believe that it will help you to stop your circular reasoning). Brethren can mean many different things! Yes�you cannot deduce which from reading it ( I agree with you there), yet you go on to say that this verse proves that it speaks to Jesus� Brother! When did the Christian Community FORGET whether Jesus had any brothers? Was it a Secret that was somehow squashed and everyone that knew the Truth was killed or brainwashed into �forgetting�.
Again�none of this is in Scripture, but are we to Deny History because it is not in Scripture? It is convenient to hide behind Scripture and to (as you say) �Twist� Scripture to defend your position.
You make yourself out to be as Holy or (in this case Holier) than St. Polycarp who died a Martyr. (A.D. 69-155).
St. Iren�us wrote
(Florinus was a Roman presbyter who lapsed into heresy. St. Iren�us wrote him a letter of remonstrance (a long extract from which is preserved by Eusebius, Church History V.20), in which he recalled their common recollections of Polycarp.)
�... I can describe the very place in which the Blessed Polycarp used to sit when he discoursed ... his personal appearance ... and how he would describe his intercourse with John and with the rest who had seen the Lord, and how he would relate their words ...�
St. Polycarp heard The Truth from John The Apostle and the other Apostles. Would you Dare to say to St. Polycarp
�that�s not in Scripture!...you blasphemy!�
Frankly Chuck�I would trust St. Polycarp to have the correct Interpretation over what you �think� you hear from The Holy Spirit and what you (an admitted hypocrite) need it to say.
I will say it again�The Church has the Full Deposit of Faith�both Written Scripture and Oral Revelation (Oral Tradition), which combined with The Teaching Church MAINTAINS the Full Deposit Unaltered and makes sure that it is passed on correctly.
Yes, Archimedes you and I both know and knows each other knows the New Testament was not compiled in Pails life time. That is why I used the word" Scriptures' . If you looked it up the word in the Strongs Concordance you would know this.
For the umteenth time you have avoided the question.
Geeze are you EVER going to answer a direct question to catholic doctrine?
You are being intellectually dishonest. Anyone can scroll through this page and the one before it and see this is true. It seems to me that you being representative of the Catholic church is kinda making the Catholic church look bad. Just thought you would like to know.
Btw, your "Polycarp" testimony thrid hand, (second hand is not even admissible in court) and it contains nothing to do with the topic/questions posed to you. *sigh*
�I love the Lord because He hears MY voice and my supplications. Because HE has inclined His ear to me, therefore I shall call upon HIM as long as I live.� - Psalm 116
Hebrews 4:16
Let US then approach GOD�s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Why would we need a mediator? Why would we need someone to plead our case to God?
Another reference in scripture indicates that Mary did not accept prayers to herself, this being just after the resurrection:
Acts 1:12 - 14 - Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day�s walk[a] from the city. 13 When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
Concerning Mary�s mortality and humanity. She herself expressed need for a Savior:
Luke 1:46 And Mary said:
�My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
Concerning Mary�s �perpetual virginity�:
Matthew 1:24-25 - When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. � Matthew 1:24
It does not say she was always a virgin. It says Joseph did not consummate their marriage UNTIL she gave birth. BTW, Jesus is referred to as her firstborn son. (Luke 2:7). Why say "firstborn" when it could have said "only"? Wasn't there a word for "only"?
Paul was directing them to The Old Testament and no one is saying that you cannot read Scripture, but just as the Eunuch had to ask for interpretation:
Acts 8:27-31
�27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
A wise man knows not to use his own understanding when he is uncertain as to the meaning of Scripture, but rather go to The Church (which is The Pillar and Foundation of Truth).
Chuck�where would you be if this power were taken away from you? You would have to find a church that totally agreed with you and then you would have to submit to that Pastor�s Authority. But then again, you�ve made it abundantly clear that you submit to no authority except Scripture and then you decide what Scripture says�Convenient?
As to St. Polycarp testimony being �thirdhand��kind of like saying what you heard from The Apostle Paul was �secondhand�. I�ll take anyone of those �hands� over Chuck�s sometimes �wrong� hearing from The Holy Spirit (you�ve admitted this Chuck).
�Why would we need a mediator? Why would we need someone to plead our case to God?�
We have Jesus�He is Sufficient. My point was in asking another Christian to �Pray for us�. Mary is a Christian (and a Excellent Example) and her prayers are powerful.
�Concerning Mary�s mortality and humanity. She herself expressed need for a Savior:�
Preaching to The Choir here. I never said or implied anything differently.
If you can interpret scripture for yourself why don't you interpret MargoSolo's scripture concerning Mary�s �perpetual virginity�: Matthew 1:24-25 -When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord ha commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consumm their marriage until she gave birth.
�It does not say she was always a virgin. It says Joseph did not consummate their marriage UNTIL she gave birth. BTW, Jesus is referred to as her firstborn son. (Luke 2:7). Why say "firstborn" when it could have said "only"? Wasn't there a word for "only"?�
Margo,
It is written (Ezekiel 44:2): "This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it; because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it."
Expounding these words, Augustine says in a sermon (De Annunt. Dom. iii): "What means this closed gate in the House of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that 'no man shall pass through it,' save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this--'The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it'--except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of angels shall be born of her? And what means this--'it shall be shut for evermore'--but that Mary is
a virgin before His Birth,
a virgin in His Birth, and
a virgin after His Birth?"
To even think that Mary allowed herself to be �known� by a man is an insult to the Holy Spirit, whose "shrine" was the Virginal Womb,
Where in The Holy Spirit had formed the flesh of Christ: Mary would never allow that it should be desecrated by intercourse with a man.
Also this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.
Lastly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption by Joseph, to assume that he could violate her knowing full well (by the angel's revelation) that Mary was to be the spouse of The Holy Spirit.
Margo,
The words "before" or "until" have a twofold sense in Scripture.
For sometimes it indicates a fixed time, as Galatians 3:19: The law "was set because of transgressions, until the seed should come, to whom He made the promise."
On the other hand, it sometimes indicates an indefinite time, as in Psalm 122:2: "Our eyes are unto the Lord our God, until He have mercy on us"; from which it is not to be gathered that our eyes are turned from God as soon as His mercy has been obtained.
What the Evangelist intended with this saying is not clear, but it is certain that he did not mean having carnal knowledge.
The Scriptures are wont to designate as the first-born, not only a child who is followed by others, but also the one that is born first.
"Otherwise, if a child were not first-born unless followed by others, the first-fruits would not be due as long as there was no further produce" [ Jerome, Adversus Helvid. x]: which is clearly false, since according to the law the first-fruits had to be redeemed within a month (Numbers 18:16).
Ultimately, we have to acquiesce to what those that knew Mary and were there�believed about her.
