Thread: Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
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Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
Posted : 3 Dec, 2010 05:41 PM
I would like to hear from real live Sabbath keepers and from those who believe the Sabbath has been fulfilled in Jesus. From those who believe the day to worship has been changed to Sunday or everyday is alike under the New Covenant or should the Sabbath still be kept.
I also would like to hear from anyone who made the switch to Sabbath keeping : What if any benefit did you notice in your life?
I do not want to start a arguement, but a passionate discussion among brothers and sisters would be helpful as I have mixed feeling on the subject.
Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
Posted : 4 Dec, 2010 03:07 PM
So we shouldn't even try to do what God asks, Gary?
Well, the Jews are kind of a living record of which day that sabbath is on. They've been keeping it religiously(no pun intended) and probably for the wrong reasons since the death of Jesus, so we can at least be assured that the one Jesus observed is the same one we observe. The dates and calender have been changed, but the daily/weekly cycle hasn't to my knowledge. There was never two Tuesdays in a row, and never any skips from Monday to Thursday that I know of. I've checked into it a little, but the only thing I could find was when someone changed the date from the Monday the 14 to Tuesday the 16 or something, but the daily cycle was intact.
I do believe that after the apostles died, that people started to celebrate Sunday as well and Saturday because of the resurrection. They kept both days for awhile, and then some time later the Catholic church "transferred" the solemnity/holiness of the Sabbath to the first day of the week, and they took pride in that for a long time as "proof" of the church's power. I don't think they'd readily admit it now though, even though you can read it in their writings.
Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. 16Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience....42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day? 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
I think the verse in Hebrews is saying that there is a day of rest for God's people, and it's the still the same one God rested on. The verse says that if Jesus had done away with it, or instituted another day of rest, He would have said something. Since He didn't, we should keep the day holy that God did. And I find it funny that keeping the day that God gave us to rest from our works is considered legalistic...
Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
Posted : 5 Dec, 2010 01:31 AM
No offense Mark, but when I read the Hebrew scripture you posted it made me kinda scratch my head....So I read it in nasb and niv and it seems to say Jesus DID pick another day ...and called it,"Today"...idk I never really saw that before in relation to the Sabbath. So maybe now we keep the reality and not the shadow and thus fulfill the Sabbath commandment? ...just a thought ...
Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
Posted : 5 Dec, 2010 07:31 AM
In the time of Jesus, the Jews worshiped on Saturday from the old covenant. Jesus changed it all with the resurrection which was on Sunday. In the New Covenant Jesus changed us all to him in so many ways. We are supposed to be like him.:applause:
Jesus tells us that he and the Father works on Sabbath.
John 5:16 - 18 (NIV) 16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, �My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.� 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
Posted : 5 Dec, 2010 09:57 AM
So, people say that Jesus changed the day of worship. Really? I'd like to see the quote and the example He gave to us. I'll save you the time, you won't find it. The idea that the laws of God were for Israel is very entertaining. First of all The Law was given to His people into whom we are grafted and adopted. We are the children of Abraham by adoption. According to Paul we are also true Jews. So if the Law was given to the children of Abraham and we are grafted into that family and also called Jews are we also not subject to the laws that apply to the Jews and so the Ten Commandments and others? (I agree that the sacrificial laws are replaced by the death of Christ)
Christians totally wig out when someone offends the Ten Commandments. They refer to these passages of Scripture as the Word of God and they be sure to make sure that we all follow them to their personal interpretations, well except for the fourth one. It's been replaced by the resurrection of the Messiah who gave us the example to worship on the Sabbath and called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath and wrote with His own hand the command to REMEMBER THE SABBATH AND KEEP IT HOLY. But I guess He changed His mind on this one, right?
Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
Posted : 5 Dec, 2010 10:48 AM
ncwestie, I have never found anywhere in scripture to support God changing Sabbath to Sunday.
What occurred was Christ last act of completing every last act of the law when He had John baptize him. Since the Lord fulfilled the law he now could do as He please with his own laws such as healing or traveling or whatever on the Sabbath.
Matthew 3:14 �But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 �And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 �And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 �And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
John knew his baptism of repentance was all it was and that he wanted Christ spiritual baptism. The reason God was pleased with His son is because in his last act of keeping the law by being water baptized he now had keep all of the law perfectly.
When we have our Sabbath in Christ we rest from our works and have no physical Sabbath such as Sunday or Saturday.
Proof: Colossians 2:14 �Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 �And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 �Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 �Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ
Colossians 2:20 �Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 �(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 �Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 �Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Ephesians 2:14 �For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 �Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
Peace means at being at rest from the law because of faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:27 �Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 �Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
God says if a man continues in the law it is because of his unbelief.
Proof: Hebrews 4:8 �For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 �There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 �For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 ��Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
Posted : 5 Dec, 2010 11:03 AM
ThunderofGod, you stated, "So, people say that Jesus changed the day of worship. Really? I'd like to see the quote and the example He gave to us. I'll save you the time, you won't find it. The idea that the laws of God were for Israel is very entertaining. First of all The Law was given to His people into whom we are grafted and adopted. We are the children of Abraham by adoption. According to Paul we are also true Jews. So if the Law was given to the children of Abraham and we are grafted into that family and also called Jews are we also not subject to the laws that apply to the Jews and so the Ten Commandments and others? (I agree that the sacrificial laws are replaced by the death of Christ)"
I'll ask you the same question you asked only in regard to where do find that saved Gentiles are also true Jews? You made implications that the children of Abraham not subject to the laws that apply to the Jews. Could you be confused about Gentiles being saved under the Abrahamic Covenant? You also stated the sacrificial laws are replaced by the death of Christ, Nowhere in scripture that I have yet to discover states God only abolished part of his law. He said he abolished all of the law.
Proof: Ephesians 2:15 �Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
This verse also brings us back to your first statement about believers being true Jews. What it does say as in Ephs. 2:15 God makes himself a new man or new creation in Christ not a true Jew as you have stated.
2 Corinthians 5:17 �Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 �And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Galatians 6:15 �For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Galatians 3:27 �For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 �There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 �And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
It seems many don't understand the meaning of peace that we have in Christ. Perhaps I should make a study on it.
I hope this cleares things up a might for you ThunderofGod.
Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
Posted : 5 Dec, 2010 11:31 AM
Gary,
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew that is one inwardly, and circumcision is of heart, in spirit, not in letter; of whom the praise is not from men, but from God. (Lit.v.)
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (KJV)
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Iewe, whiche is a Iewe outwarde. Neither is that circucision which is outwarde in the fleshe:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Iewe whiche is one inwardly, and the circumcisio of ye heart, which consisteth in the spirite, and not in the letter [is circumcision] whose prayse is not of men, but of God. (Bishops 1568)
Are not all believers circumcised of the heart? Is not our circumcision one that is inward? Therefore all believers are Jews.
You say that I "implications that the children of Abraham not subject to the laws that apply to the Jews." I di not mean to imply any such thing. My belief is that all believers are subject to the Laws of God as laid out in the OT. As for the sacrificial laws it is apparent that Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb. The curtain in the temple was torn, Jesus said it is finished, or "paid in full" and so His death was the end of the keeping of the sacrificial laws be cause he fulfilled the requirement for a sacrifice for the redemption of creation. You presume I intended to mean abolished but I did not. All of God's laws are eternal.
I believe this may be the verse you are looking for:
Heb 9:11 But Christ appeared as a High Priest of the blessings that are soon to come by means of the greater and more perfect Tent of worship, a tent which has not been built with hands--that is to say does not belong to this material creation--
Heb 9:12 and once for all entered the Holy place, taking with Him not the blood of goats and calves, but His own blood, and thus procuring eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have contracted defilement make them holy so as to bring about ceremonial purity,
Heb 9:14 how much more certainly shall the blood of Christ, who strengthened by the eternal Spirit offered Himself to God, free from blemish, purify your consciences from lifeless works for you to serve the ever-living God?
Heb 9:15 And because of this He is the negotiator of a new Covenant, in order that, since a life has been given in atonement for the offences committed under the first Covenant, those who have been called may receive the eternal inheritance which has been promised to them. (Weymouth's NT)
Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
Posted : 5 Dec, 2010 12:14 PM
Good questions, TS~I agree with the fact that we are under grace and the only laws still effective for this age is the moral laws or ten commandments and sabbath is spiritual and daily as Jesus fulfilled the Saturday law sabbath and became our sabbath.
Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)
"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest (sabbath). Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest (sabbath) for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:28-30)
Attention Sabbath Keepers! & New Covenant Keepers!
Posted : 5 Dec, 2010 02:07 PM
The "Sabbath commandment was fulfilled" argument doesn't last long, because Jesus also fulfilled the commandment "thou shalt not murder" and "thou shalt have no other gods", but I don't think anyone would argue that those are gone. Keeping the sabbath "in the spirit" doesn't get easier either. When it comes to adultery, we can't even indulge in the though of it without sinning. When it comes to murder, we can't even wish someone was dead without sinning. Apply that "spirit" principle to all of the commandments, and they become even more pointed. But the whole point and the simplest argument is...follow in Jesus's footsteps. Why not? What are the reasons behind not doing what Jesus did, and what God asked us to do? Are they good ones? Because if we say that we love God/put Him first, and then ignore the commandment that He asked us to remember, I think they need to be really awesome reasons with a lot of scripture to back them up. And we need to remember the whole point of the "seventh day". It is a memorial of creation. It is the center of the plan of salvation. Jesus finished His work of recreation right before He entered into the Sabbath rest, rested from His work in the grave, and became the light of the world again on the first day. Seeing any parallels?
:peace::peace:
P.S. I would be careful about any other translations besides the KJV. The NIV is WAY different from the KJV on this, which is kind of worrying. It's hard to imagine that one of them is so differently/wrongly translated. And Jesus did not speak of another day like God's 7th day. If He did, I think it would be in the bible. So that throws some doubt on the NIV translation.
NIV
Heb. 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[a] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
�So I declared on oath in my anger,
�They shall never enter my rest.��[b]
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: �On the seventh day God rested from all his works.�[c] 5 And again in the passage above he says, �They shall never enter my rest.�
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it �Today.� This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
�Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.�[d]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God�s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God�s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
KJV
Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
