A reply for Archimedes. You stated, "I believe you have a message somewhere in that post. I just got lost around the 42 paragraph and had to find some aspirin for my headache"
I have found from experience and the experience of others that when a person doesn't comprehend the things of God as God has given them, is because they don't have the mind of Christ or the Holy Spirit to teach them. That is why the Pharisees of old never could understand much of what the Lord gave them for truth.
Unless a man is born again of the spirit he cannot understand spiritual matters.
Naturally I have no idea where you stand in spiritually matters; all I can give is scripture that applies to the subject being discussed. You will have to be the judge wither any of the preceding verses fits your situation, because only you can know.
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
You stated I should be consise, {I believe you mean concise} I won't address the other two adjectives as they are a redundancy of the word concise.
Sorry you don't have the patience to read all that I gave. It's impossible to give short answer since the scriptures are written in an ambiguous manner. The Lord tells us to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. {1 Thessalonians 5:21}. I believe the godly way to answer is to give sufficient scripture to prove beyond doubt God's truth.
I suppose I could shorten my replies by only giving the location of the verse instead of giving both verse location and the verse. I have a feeling if I did that, no one would bother to look up and read what the verses say.
Another reason for giving a more than one or two verses for proof is because anyone could say that is my interpretation.
There is much spiritual darkness in the world today that makes it imperative to give enough information to prove beyond doubt what God's will is, versus man's many sectarian interpretations. These freewheeling interpretations add confusion and darkness to what is so very clear in scripture if one takes all of God's word in account on a given subject provided we allow the Holy Spirit to teach us, if we have a hunger for God's truth.
2 Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
You stated, " Also I don't think that Scripture would agree with your answer about what is the Pillar of Truth. Scripture is what you Hold as the Final Court of Appeal...isn't it? What Scripture says ends all conversation...right? If Scripture says it is so...then...by Golly!"
You stated, you don't think the scriptures would agree with my answer. I appreciate your opinion. However, you didn't give any proof for your assumption and I give many verses to prove what I state. If Christ is not the fulfillment of all knowledge then Christ is not God. Provided I have understood your ambiguous statement.
1 Corinthians 1:5 That in everything ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
God's knowledge tells us man's mind is carnal, it is not subject to him so how would it be possible for any man to have a fraction of the Knowledge God has: the one who has created everything.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
LOL, I hope I understood your last statement correctly because it really doesn't make any sense.
Archimedes, in regards to water baptism when the Church was first given; this baptism was only true for Jews and was never given for the Gentile to practice. It would only be a matter of time for Jews also to cease from water baptism, but God allowed it until He tore down the temple thirty years after his death on the cross. The book of Hebrews shows us how Paul explains that all carnal ordinances under the law were set aside {Ephesians 2:15-16}. The book of Hebrews tells Jewish believers to rest {Hebrews 4:9-10} from their own physical {carnal} works {Hebrews 7:16, Hebrews 9:10} because Christ fulfilled the entire law and that it was nailed to the cross. {Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:14-15}.
More proof that Gentiles were not to be under carnal {physical} ordinances.
Please read the 15th chapter of Acts and you will see there was a meeting to determine if Gentiles were to be under bondage to the Law. The conclusion was that Gentiles were to abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. {Acts 15:20} Please notice water baptism, tithing, communions, keeping holy days etc. are never mentioned, not once. If Gentiles were to keep ordinances the same as Jews they would have mentioned it at this meeting. Even Paul ceased from water baptism {1 Corinthians 1:14-16}
The water baptism that was given in Acts 10 happens about the same time the first Gentiles were saved. This is during this time that Paul did some water baptizing and it wasn't until later on in the meeting in Acts the fifteenth chapter that it was revealed that Gentiles were not under the burden the Jews had been under. I'll give part of that meeting here so the reader can see Gentiles were not to be under any kind of ordinances.
Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
In regards to water baptism found in the gospels; the only water baptism is a baptism of repentance, {Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3}
Water baptism was a Jewish ceremonial baptism for those Jews who believed their Messiah was at hand and they were to repent and wait for their Messiah. It was never given to the church.
There are several differences between water baptism and spiritual baptism. Since water baptism was a ceremonial baptism it only got a Jew wet and a public profession of believe about their Messiah being at hand. {Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15}
Spiritual baptism on the other hand is done by the Lord {Colossians 2:12} and not by man as John did with water baptism. Water baptism requires a person to act as an intermediary to perform this baptism. {1 Timothy 2:5} Spiritual baptism is performed by God not man. God sees spiritual baptism as a believer being buried and raised with Christ. This can never be done or was ever done with water. Why settle for a baptism that shows unbelief, when the real deal will save your soul? In addition, the Holy Spirit never dwelled in a believer until spiritual baptism and that is the only means anyone can obtain it. Why settle for less when you can have God's spirit dwell in you?
Also during the time the Kingdom was offered to the Jews, the church that is Christ's body was not given or revealed until Paul did so after Christ ascended back into heaven. If the kingdom of God {thousand year reign} was part of the church then Christ would have revealed it while He was here rather than have Paul be an Apostle to the Gentiles and make both Jew and Gentile a new creature in Christ? {Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 2:15, Ephesians 4:24, Colossians 3:10}. This new man or creature in Christ is neither Jew nor Gentile could never have come about with a physical {carnal} ordinance such as water baptism. It can only be done by God just as Col. 2:12 says. I could give more on the subject of water baptism; but in order to avoid a headache for some I'll refrain. lol
The sum total of all that I have given is found in these next verses.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
We have one God, who has one body, {or church, not sectarian divisions} One spirit {the same message for all} that makes it possible for one hope of the Lord's calling for our salvation and our walk in Christ. To accomplish this God has only one faith, {not the faith of your choice} and one baptism {not both water and spirit for today}and when we walk in God's will we will have God the Father who is above all through all we do and that all that we can be according to His word.
God has declared one baptism and one faith and if our faith is not in agreement totally in agreement with the Eph. 4:4-6, than our faith is not found in God's word.
Hate to push a guy over when he is dizzy, then again some of us have a strange sense of humor. hehehe.
The catholic church doesn't really practice what you think. Infant baptism is more of a dedication of the child until he comes of age at 13 years old. At which time there is the ritual of Confirmation. As the name implies ; a individual confirming of the infant baptism.
Steve, how long have you been catholic? The only reason I ask is I am curious if you experinced the Charismatic Movement when it swept through the catholic church in the 70's
MY ANSWER IS THE WORD NOT AN OPINION. YOU HAVE AN OVERDOSE OF UNBELIEF GOING ON HERE THE WORD NEVER DIED. THE BAPTISM YOU SEEM TO BE SPEAKING OF IS ONE BAPTISM OR THE NEW BIRTH, NOWHERE HAS WATER BAPTISM BEEN DONE AWAY WITH. THE THIRD IS THE BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.
I still am a bit confused. Are you saying that Baptism is valid but that there are several Baptisms?
Two,
Confirmation is just that�a �confirming� of the Gifts of The Holy Spirit. It is done at the �Age of Reason�. At that point in a Christian�s Life he or she Confirms their Beliefs and states them Outright before God and the Community of Believers. They denounce satan and sin and in a sense become Soldiers for Christ. It is similar to your altar call (I think?).
Acts of the Apostles 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them.
When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit
I would have to ask �why did The Holy Spirit Not come to them?� Notice that Peter and John �Laid Hands� on them.
Acts of the Apostles 19:2-6
2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.
4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 When Paul
PLACED HIS HANDS ON THEM,
the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
This is similar to Catholic Confirmation. I�m sure this is where it Originated.
Two, I�ve been a Catholic since I was 8 days old. Never really paid attention while in Catholic School, but learned my faith afterwards having to defend it.
The Charismatic Movement was something else for me. I was used to going to Mass and being as quiet as a mouse and as humble as possible. My wife was used to her Protestant Worshipping with Music and Choirs and much more participating.
We finally found a Spanish Catholic Church that had some leeway in the Rubrics of the Mass (because it was Spanish) and the Pastor was a former Protestant Minister and I learned to Praise and Worship before Mass (I really got to enjoy Praying like that! Raising your voice in Song to God). Also Father spoke in Tongues and people were being Slain in the Spirit. It took me quite a while to get used to that.
I rather prefer a Charismatic Catholic Church now�although it does open itself to people �showing off� and wanting to be the center of attention. Sometimes I wonder if they are there for the Mass or for the Show.
IS IT ARGUING WHEN YOU BELIEVE THE WORD OF GOD IS THE TRUTH AND THEN WRITE A POST SUCH AS THIS, THE ONE THAT SAVED ME NEVER PLAYS WITH UNBELIEF, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONFUSION. WHAT DOES HEBREWS 11:2 SAY. SO ARE WE TO DENY THE WORD AND AGREE WITH THE POST?
We are called to be led by the Holy Spirit by Faith, studying the Bible to ensure we are being led astray because of our own poor ability to follow consistently. Those who study the Bible without being led by the Holy Spirit are at great risk to legalism and cult religions. I know you know this, just sharing in general.
