15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God�s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
What are your thoughts on this verse? What does your church say about this verse? What does your Pastor say? What are your thoughts?
Especially the part that says
"the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
Scripture does not say that Scripture is The Pillar and Foundation of the Truth. Scripture says that The CHURCH is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.
Of course we are The Body of Christ and YES�we are �the church�,
Ephesians 4:4-16 (New International Version)
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it[a] says:
�When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.�[b]
9 (What does �he ascended� mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Anyone that is Baptized �In the Name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit� is a member of The Mystical Body of Christ.
Galatians 3:26-29 (New International Version)
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham�s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
but again�if you take Scripture for what it says and do not use individual interpretation (what you want it to say), you read:
Matthew 16:18 (New International Version)
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
If you weren�t able to go to the Church that was there when The Writer of this verse Lived and ascertain for certain the �meaning��you might interpret this verse in several ways.
Peter is the one around which God will �gather� (build) His Church (members or Body of Christ) and that �only� those that Peter has �gathered� (either personally or through his subordinates) are in The Mystical Body of Christ. Also that this �church� (Body of Christ) would prevail and survive till the End of the World. Sounds like the beginning of a �cult�.
I don�t believe that is the case, but someone who wanted to (or knows no better) might do just that. You could also come up with:
Peter is the One whom God will use as the Center (the Quarterback) around whom God will build a Physical (brick and mortar) Church. Not a �mystical� �up in the sky� �church on every corner� church, but a Real��up on a HillTop� type of Church. And this Church will prevail against all until His Return.
I�m sure that more interpretations can be devised.
Your words here Chuck:
�I cannot believe how you refuse to see that the Spirit of Jesus lives His people ; not in buildings denominations or religions.�
That would be asinine to think that God�s Spirit �lives� in a Building or Denonmination or�wait a minute�Religion? I would disagree with Religion. I would think that His Spirit (The Holy Ghost) Lives in God�s Religion, but I am going off on another tangent. Yes�I agree that God�s Church (physical building) is not where God�s Essence is but rather it is His People � His Believers � The Body of CHRIST � His CHURCH where God Lives.
That being said there is a grave danger in thinking that this means that we are to go out into the world as Christian Ninjas (mixed metaphor) alone armed with only our Bibles (Sola Scriptura) staying away from all these Hypocritical churches.
Whether we like it or not�whether or not we are willing to submit to a higher Authority�whether or not we can �handle� being told what to do by a �mere� man (Pastor), the Church (physical building) (that God started) is His Choice of �method��His Chosen Instrument to reach the world with �The Good News�.
Arguably, a man-run organization that is susceptible to mistakes and temptations for abuse and one that we will rail against (Human Nature ), but It Is The One God Chose for us! Calling The Church The Body of Christ allows us to decide what we do or where we go etc. We could say that I do not need to go to church because I am The Church or all I need is one or two more �believers� and I can stay at home and �hold� my own church (I agree that where you hold service is not so important), but my point is that thinking this way allows for so many deviations from God�s Plan.
God Knew what would happen if He did not place �controls� over us; if God did not leave a �Shepherd� here on earth to guide us and hold us to Task. That is why Christ started His Church and named a Vicar and established a Teaching Church to ensure that His Plan of Salvation would remain INTACT!
Without a Real Physical Church, we (The Body of Christ) become an aimless �mob� gravitating to whomever can �speak the speak��to that person that has the most �charisma��that knows how to �tickle our ears��that can �twist� Sacred Scripture to defend their position. In other words to what we have today � 38,000 different churches � I have to repeat that because it startles me every time I think about it�38,000�38,000! DIFFERENT churches teaching our children�leading The Body of Christ.
Now, please�do not misunderstand me�some of these churches are Wonderful and Powerful and SPIRIT FILLED and do so much good for mankind. Can you Imagine what would happen if we were All on the Same Page! If we were All of One Voice�One Prayer!
That was the Last thing Christ asked of His Father�Christ�s Last Prayer�for Us to be One with The Father as Christ is One with His Father.
You are correct. There was disagreement even back then and there were those that wanted to start their own churches (the Gnostics). There were those that left Christ and started their own churches (those that left Him because they did not want to be Cannibals "This is My Body...).
Paul spoke to them from The Pillar and Foundation of Truth (The Church) correcting them. By the time that The New Testament was put together by The Church there were over 300 books and letters claiming to be "inspired by God". That's a lot of Errors that needed correcting. It was the Pillar and Foundation of Truth that Corrected them and Decided (because the Church knew the TRUTH) what was and wasn't Inspired. Make sense?
Your words; " Without a physical church we (the Body of Christ) become a aimless mob."
I seems you do not understand the real church. Please allow a feeble illustration : Have you ever watched a flock of sparrows? Or a school of fish? There is no single sparrow or fish or even a council of them that stands up front directing them to go this way or that way. No they all move in unison being directed from within. Such is the real Church of Jesus.
You have repeatedly referred to 38,000 churches. You do realize there are four catholic churches? I would assume you belong to the real one? Which one might that be?
1) Roman catholic
2) Anglican catholic
3) Independent catholic
4) Old catholic
And I have a BIG question for you; Do you accept Vatican II ? It has been officially adopted by most of the catholic churches. Just wondering if your position on ecumenism agrees with your church?
I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree that Paul was correcting them "from The Pillar and Foundation of Truth (The Church)", but from the pillar and foundation of truth laid out in and by Christ and found in the Scriptures, the written Word of God.
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: -2 Timothy 3:16
If correction is to be made, it must come from God's Word alone. The Church holds the truth found in Christ's words, but I don't believe the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth itself.
Regardless of who put the New Testament together, God made sure that all we need to know is therein. :winksmile:
We are the Body of Christ, and Christ is the head. It's that simple to me. He's the rock/cornerstone that God builds the church on, He's the foundation, He's the truth, I don't see any reason to trust a fallible man-led institution to implement their traditions upon me. I just need to follow Jesus as best I know how, that's all He asks.
Well that explains your mentality�Herd Mentality! Are you saying that Protestants are Protestants because of �Herd Mentality�? That you have left The catholic Church because some of those around you have done the same?
Sparrows and Fish move as a body (just as Cattle and Horses and LEMMINGS do! And apparently now�according to you� Protestants) because of what is called �Herd Mentality�.
Herds and Schools and Groups seem to move as One Body because they align themselves on the movements of their closest neighbours. That is sufficient to make to movement of the whole school organized.
Here is an example (isn�t college great!)
Put ten coins in a line on a table randomly heads and tails, but five of each
Heads represent a fish, swimming to the left, tails the opposite.
Take a random coin. If it is heads, but its two neighbour�s are tails, then make it tails. If it is tails and its two neighbour�s are heads, then make it heads. Otherwise do nothing.
Continue the procedure. Choose a coin randomly and flip it or not depending on its neighbours. Quickly all coins will have the same side up.
This mechanism happens often in nature, observe for instance how ants quickly establish a path when random ants find a new food source.
(straight out of a textbook)
As for your ridiculous assertion that there are 4 Catholic Churches�I have to REPEAT what is becoming tiresome�Please Do Your Research!!!
After Henry the Eight broke away from Rome, the Church of England has gone back and forth between wanting to do their own thing and wanting to obey God. Finally, Rome decided that they could do their own thing and Pope Leo XIII declared the Anglican apostolic succession invalid from the Holy See's perspective. Still The church of England (Angelican) has tried to claim some sort of Apostolic Succession and that is why you have a church that calls itself angelican-cayholic.
Independent Catholic churches
are congregations that are not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church or any other churches whose sacraments are recognized by the Roman Catholic Church. Basically Christians that want to do their �own thing�.
The Old Catholic Church
is a Christian denomination originating with groups that split from the Holy See because they disagreed with essential doctrines. The church is not in communion with The Roman Catholic Church. Again�Christians that want to do their �own thing�.
Chuck�again�once more (or is it the sixth time)�Please!....Please!...PLEASE!!!??
�from the pillar and foundation of truth laid out in and by Christ and found in the Scriptures, the written Word of God.� (your words)
How can I argue with that? Yes everything the Church has was given to Her by Christ, but Scripture does not speak to many things�the answer to some questions cannot be found in Scripture. Where in Scripture do you find the answer to Test Tube Babies? Women�s Rights?
You can find Scripture that �eludes to� or �infers�. You can find indirect answers, but back when Scripture was written they did not have Test Tube Babies or Women Rights. Yes, there are Universal Maxims and Truths in Scripture, but Christ left with The Apostles Everything they needed to know concerning Faith and Morals and Christ gave His Church The Holy Spirit to assist with any Future questions.
�All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: -2 Timothy 3:16�
Profitable�Useful.
Scripture itself says that THE CHURCH�the Church�is The Pillar and Foundation of TRUTH. Simple�it means just what it says!
God Knows what is best for us. He knows that we need more than Scripture (you depend only on Scripture to answer your questions and you can see what difficulties have arisen). The Church will NEVER�NEVER�NEVER go against Scripture.
