Beyond the fact that Jesus embodied the office of prophet as well as priest and king, where does the idea that the office of a prophet exists today come from. Many of the authors I've read agree that the office exists and is proven through Ephesians 4:8 when Jesus left the ascension gifts. I've researched this idea and done my own exegesis and can't seem to find any answers. Is the name 'office of prophet' just a label or is it real. I see that there is a definite difference between this and the spiritual gifts of 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 and Romans 12, but how the name came into existence is the question. The same is true for the office of apostle. These authors seem to agree that this is real and exists today too. As far as I understood, they died. I have read that the equals today are people like bishops and leaders of parachurch organizations and the like - those who lay the foundation. I don't believe in cessationism, but I also don't see agreement in the Word for these offices. Please help... Authors on these subjects include: C Peter Wagner - Your Spiritual Gifts can Help your Church Grow, Bill Hamon - Prophets and Personal Prophecy, Mike Bickle -Growing in the Prophetic, Cindy Jacobs - The Voice of God
My response:
Thank you for writing. I am not sure I have the answer, but I will give you my opinion. I will try to give you as much background about why I believe what I believe, but because I want to try to keep this pretty short, I may not cover everything.
I believe there was an office called "Prophet" but I don't believe it exists today. The prophets were God's people who basically were preachers. They called the nation of Israel to repentance, they rebuked them and they exhorted them to follow God. God also often gave them very specific revelations for the people. Some of these revelations were about future events; judgments, about Jesus first and second comings, etc... Remember that when the prophets were most active there was not a Bible for the people to read. They had the Law of Moses, but not the rest of the Bible. In fact most of what the prophets said has been kept for us in our Bible. In other words, their Bible was the prophets.
Today we do have the Bible and I believe that God has closed the cannon of scripture. This is very important because if you believe that (that God has closed the cannon of scripture) then there would no longer be any reason for the office of Prophet. Now that is not to say there is no longer the gift of prophesy, because Paul clearly teaches that there is. However, I don't believe that God gives future revelations any longer. What the gift of prophecy is (in my opinion) is the calling of God's people back to Him. They still rebuke, exhort and teach.
There were 400 years of silence in Israel as far as prophets goes until the time of John the Baptist. John's ministry was different than the rest of the prophets, he made way for the Messiah. Of course Jesus could be called a prophet also, but of course He was much more than that. But let's go back to Israel. Even their cannon of scripture is closed. They might not realize it yet, but they have the same books as us in the Old Testament and no further revelations from God. Now of course we might say that is because they rejected their Messiah and that would be correct, but my point is this, I believe God closed the books and you either accept what He has already said or you miss the boat.
I will come back to this after I address the apostle question. I will also address the authors that you mentioned.
As for the office of Apostle. My belief is that other than Jesus Himself there were and will always be only 12 apostles. Here is a verse which I believe shows that. (Revelation 21:14 NIV) The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Next I believe that apostles can only be appointed by Christ and that He did so in person. He appointed the 12 disciples as apostles if you remember to go out and preach. This included Judas. After Jesus' death and resurrection the disciples decided that they needed to add an apostle to replace Judas and they cast lots: (Acts 1:26 NIV) Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
I personally think this was a mistake by them. I believe they tried to rush what God was going to do. I believe that Paul whom Jesus personally called to be an apostle on the Damascus road will be the 12th name on the foundation of the city wall, not Matthias. And the fact that there are only 12 names on the foundation of that wall to me shows that there were only 12 true apostles and that there is no such office today. Here is what Paul says about his appointment: (Galatians 1:1 NIV) Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead--
Okay, now back to the part about the authors you have read. I am in no way trying to judge their hearts. I believe these are godly men who want to serve Christ, but I think they are mistaken. One of the reasons I think they are mistaken is that they believe in latter day signs and wonders. Now don't get me wrong, I believe that God has not changed, I believe that He still can and does heal people, change lives, etc..., but I don't believe that He is pouring out His Spirit today as He did with the Apostles. Again when the Apostles were doing signs and wonders there was no New Testament for the people to read. God used these signs and wonders to show people that He was truly speaking through these men. Since as I said earlier I believe that the cannon of scripture is closed, I don't believe there is a reason for God to do signs and wonders through individuals today, because He is not going to give them new revelations for the people. Here is a verse I think is important: (2 Corinthians 12:12 NIV) The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and miracles--were done among you with great perseverance.
Notice that signs and wonders and miracles are the mark of apostles. If you believe there is still an office of apostle today, then you have to believe that the persons holding that office can and will do signs, wonders and miracles. My questions is why? I must admit I am not going to be very civil at this point, but most of the so called modern day prophets and apostles get rich doing these signs and wonders and miracles. Yet historically none of the true prophets or apostles were rich, they put Christ first in more then just words.
Here is my final point, if these authors are right and there are prophets and apostles today, then why is it that God is not speaking through them to the whole Church (body of Christ)? Why aren't their letters and messages added to the scriptures? Why would God send a message and only have that message reach a small percentage of the believers? Also why do so many of the messages from these people contradict each other and some even contradict scripture? God will never give a message which contradicts anything else He has ever said.
Again I am not trying to say that these men are evil or anything like that, but I do believe that they are mislead. Emotions are what much of this is based on instead of the Word of God.
MrRow Shared ~ Deep emotions are coming into play. Which I find strange,
*** Well...If this is refering to Rivers Emotions...Yes !...Women have ONE Feeling with a GaZillion Emotions...and you being a Man...of course you find this Strange...Men are Intilectual & Analitical...Now if this was in referance to your own Emotions...might I suggest you Please Dig Deeper...:goofball:...
This is about something a Women shared that has Deep Meaning to Her...an a Man has Dis-Regarded Her Contribution...and in Essence...Her...:winksmile:...
Also Shared ~ If you "really" believe, why do you get angry? It is those who have doubts that would be the angry ones.
*** I'd get Peeved to ( And Forgive ) if a Man Dis-Regarded something that is very Personal and Important to me...Especialy if it Pertains to my Belief & Personal Relationship with Jesus*...It shows He has No Care or Need or Want...Its Rejection & Contemp Prior to Investigation of Knowing a Person...It happens to Women & Men all the time...and its not Nice...:rolleyes:
Anywho...thats my 2 bits...an Sister River...Water Under the Bridge as you walk to the other side and continue to walk in the light of the LORD Jesus*...Keep the faith Rollin...xo
I cannot stand to see people put down or bullied, it makes my heart hurt. Everyone has feelings, of course some have thicker skin than others. I used to have very thick skin but through many years of softening by the Lord, the walls I had up came crumbling down and it makes me vulnerable to alot of emotions. Things that I dont understand.
This may help you understand me a little:
I got saved in a non-denominational church and the Lord raised me up and I was in leadership under my pastor for many years.
This whole time I would have these vivid dreams and when I would be praying at home for people, I got these pictures in my mind. I would share the pictures I got with the person and turns out it was things that only they knew about..so I learned that what I saw was from God wanting me to encourage that person.
As I would pray for women at the altar after service I heard things in my head that turned out to be the cause/root of these womens issues. God used these things to bring about healing that was much needed and today they walk in freedom.
When the pastor found out these things, I couldnt really explain what was going on because I didnt know...I was never taught anything like this or what to do with it.
Well, people started talking behind my back and it got pretty bad, so bad that I felt like an outcast. I was called "mystical" among other things. My friends even looked at me funny the last couple years I was there. I didnt ask for these things to happen, it just did.
One day God told me He was removing the pastors and I ended up leaving and looking for another home. A year later, they fell and everything was a mess at that church but the Lord spared me and I didnt get caught up in it.
I found a church where there are more people like me and guess what, I'm not weird. If someone would have told me years ago the stuff that I told my pastor I would feel the same way he did toward me but it was because there wasnt any understanding.
Sometimes when people dont understand something they are to quick to criticize and that's what he did and that's what so many others do too.
Many people on this site have gifts (whether you believe it or not) and are afraid to share about them because they dont want to get attacked or humiliated.
So now, I ask the Lord to bring on the gifts! I want them all!
so YOU say prophets dont exist. How do you explain what happens to me...NO i'm not a prophetess but He does use me as His mouthpiece often times. I can also see how people can get confused how to deliver what they hear from God. So they get marked as "false prophets"...of course there are those who arent hearing from Papa God and are hearing from demons but I'm talking about the ones with the true gift of prophecy.
It sounds like you have a gift for exhortation and that is great that you help others. I am basing this on everything you wrote but nothin sounded weird about it to me. I say good job and Praise the LORD!
I've posted this before. The topic has been brought back up so here it is again!
The original Twelve
Simon
Andrew
James
John
Philip
Bartholomew
Thomas
Mathew
James
Thaddaeus
Simon the Zealot
Judas Iscariot
Matthias the 13th Apostle (chosen by the remaining eleven apostles)
Acts 1:26
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
The scripture does not say that there was a big hurry to choose a new apostle. You can�t read your own theology into the text. If you read your own viewpoint into the text you will always get the wrong interpretation. The Jews used the method of lots to determine who would be the new apostle. Their belief was that God would use divine intervention so that the correct person drew the correct lot thus settling the matter.
The other Apostles
Andronicus and Junia
Romans 16:7 (KJV)
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
This verse does not indicate that they were popular among the apostles. Rather, it implies they were apostles, known by the apostles. We do not know much about Andronicus and Junia. Perhaps Junia was the wife of Andronicus. Junia is the feminine of Junius. If Junia is indeed a female, then Junia is the only instance of a female apostle in the bible.
Apollos
1 Cor. 4:4-9 (KJV)
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. [5] Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. [6] And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. [7] For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? [8] Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. [9] For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
Paul includes Apollos along with himself in the apostolate.
Barnabas
Acts 14:14 (KJV)
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Barnabas was the first person to treat Paul as a friend after Paul�s conversion.
Epaphroditus
Philip. 2:25 (KJV)
Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellow soldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
The word messenger is apostolos in the Greek language.
James, the Lord�s brother
Galatians 1:19 (KJV)
But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Paul
The apostle Paul
Two Unnamed Apostles
2 Cor. 8:23 (KJV)
Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
The word messenger is apostolos in the Greek language.
Silvanus and Timotheus
1 Thes. 1:1; 2:6 (KJV)
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thes. 2:6 (KJV)
Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
Paul includes Silvanus and Timotheus as apostles along with himself.
We cannot discount the apostleship of Matthias based on the silence of the scriptures concerning him. Just because we do not have much to read about him does not mean that such silence, in itself, is evidence that his election to apostleship was unsanctioned and unendorsed by the Lord. Very few of the disciples in the Upper Room were famous. Scripture says not a single word for more than half of the apostles after Pentecost. For example, scripture has little to say about Simon the Zealot. Yet we do not discount him as an apostle.
As for Peter making a mistake, where is the reproof of a �bad decision� in the scriptures? Where does it say the decision was made in haste? It does not exist. It was a suggestion by Peter to the others in the room. They all agreed to the decision to cast lots.
Binding and Loosing
Matthew 18:15 (KJV)
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Brother in this context is meant as a fellow believer
[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Verse 16 is referring to establishing a fact in a Jewish court
Deut. 19:15 (KJV)
One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Let him be cast out of the church at least for a while as a heathen or tax collector.
See 1 Cor. 5:1-5 and 2 Cor. 2:5-11
[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. [19] Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. [20] For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
The words bind and loose are literally �prohibit� and �permit.� The terms were used in 1st century Judaism to mean �prohibit� and �permit.� Josephus mentions in War of the Jews 1:5:2 that the Pharisees �became themselves the real administrators of the public affairs; they banished and reduced whom they pleased; they bound and loosed [men] at their pleasure��
Jesus used the familiar terms himself in Matt 16:19 and Matt 18:18. By these words He practically invested them with the same authority as that which he found belonging to the scribes and Pharisees who �bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.� That is, loose them as they have the power to do.
Jesus is also granting His disciples the same authority as the Levitical priests and the judge who shall be in those days (Deut. 17:8-12) to make decisions for the new community of believers in Christ. However Christ does instruct His disciples to obey the commandments of the Pharisees in Matt 23:2-3 because they sit in the seat of Moses.
V.19, Jesus is saying �if two or more of you agree on any religious or community issue, then your decision for them that asked the question will be as if it came directly from my Father in heaven.� Jesus strengthens this by promising his own presence in these situations.
Vs 20 Is a reference to Malachi 3:16
�Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.�
Concerning Peter
Acts 1:15-16 (KJV)
And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) [16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
What did David say by divine influence of the Holy Ghost? Peter is referring to prophesy concerning Judas!
Psalm 109:8 (KJV)
Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
Peter and the approximate 120 are not out of line for casting lots. We know that God has the final say according to his word when casting lots. The prophecy concerning Judas is completed. And with the authority given to the disciples to bind (permit) and loose (loose) they have found a replacement for Judas.
Acts 1:26 (KJV)
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
The Word of God says that Matthias was numbered with the eleven apostles.
So there were more than 14 Apostles! At what point in history did God decide to take away those gifts and callings? There is nobody here that can answer that because it hasnt happened!
My first posting on prophets and apostles was done to emphasize that the gifts Jesus left us should be used wisely. They should be preformed in a way God would want us to use them, To Praise God and give him the Glory for them. We should not boast in the way we use them. He along controls them and he alone can destroy them.
Some Christian may have one or more of them and most Christians have none at all. Treat Baby Christians and everyone with the Golden Rule! Norture them and bring them to the love and caring Jesus had for everyone.
Strive to get to their heart and everybody will get along so much better. Practice what we preach!
He does give to all of us when we are transformed by being reborned the Holy Spirit to live within us.
We all must strive to be more Christ Like.
This is done in the fruits of the Spirit in Galations.
The Greatest of these is Love. We should love everyone and show our love for him daily in our walk with Christ. Let our little light shine!
It�s not our way we live but we should all be living Christ like if we have a personal relationship with him. Every Christian hopes for the Good News he gives us, but we will be accountable for our deeds and actions when he does come. We must all have to carry our own cross.
I urge you to discern all things with your walk in Christ and put your trust in his word for your answers in life. Praise God for the Internet Today for discerning everything. Apply it to scripture and you can�t go wrong!
WHO CAN PROPHESY?
While it is impossible to totally separate prophecy from prophets, it doesn't take a prophet to prophesy. Prophecy is a call to a person to deliver a specific revealed message. The one who speaks it is not responsible for the response, only for its delivery. God can choose anyone to speak a needed truth, even a donkey, as Balaam found out. Amos, the first of the so-called 'minor' prophets, wasn't a career prophet but a herdsman and tree-tender who obeyed God's call to prophesy on a few brief but very important occasions.
Look again at Philip's daughters. Or Joel's prophecy about the era to come which came at Pentecost, in which "just folks" prophesied. The Second Vatican Council spoke of how the Church and each baptized believer shared in Christ's prophetic office (LG 12, 35) by way of their insights and their witness.
God can make anyone prophesy, but being a prophet is a much more serious matter. A prophet is one who has not only been given the gift of prophecy, but also its task, its calling, and its special burden. Prophecy becomes the prophet's purpose. Like with Elijah or Jeremiah, the sacred task becomes their entire identity.
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ABUSE CLAIMS
There are several tell-tale signs of the deliberate abuse of the claim to prophecy :
� when the leader starts making 'prophetic' announcements which have claim to any sort of binding effect on those followers.
� when the leader makes no specific claims, but followers are recording, collecting, or distributing what the leader says, with the claim that it is prophecy from God.
Either way, the problems are threefold.
1.The process of discernment is being pre-empted; the sayings are presumed to be from God, and thus anyone who uses the means of discernment on them is seen as doubting God.
2. It is used for ruling their lives. That is the role of doctrine, not prophecy. Doctrine properly comes from the long-established, revealed Word of God -- the Bible. Any other source of binding doctrine sooner or later stands against Scripture.
3.This problem is the most damning one: it draws attention toward the 'prophet' and away from Christ.
That's why some people follow a teaching of the late leader of the Vineyard Fellowships, John Wimber, and speak of 'prophecy' in a more tentative language. It's an approach drawn from the Quaker practices that Wimber learned when he was a Quaker. Wimber taught their members to express what comes to them as prophecy in terms like 'I think you're being led to...'and 'God could be wanting us to do this...' as opposed to 'Thus saith the Lord!' or "God told me last night...". Tentative language encourages others to weigh what is said and to use the full array of the means of discernment on it. It gives permission to take time, to see what kind of fruit it might bear. It allows people to be wrong without stigma, because the person who prophesies or gives a 'word' makes no rash claim about its authority. It allows people to be right with less ego about having a supposed 'special connection to God'. Tentative language also gives space for everyone to share, even if they're new to this sort of thing. It is, I think, a sign of a growing sense of responsibility regarding what is actually an earth-shaking claim, that God still speaks to his people today in ways that happened at the church's birth.
A New Breed, Joel�s Army, the Joseph Company, the MELCHIZEDEK Order I found this article on Deborah�s site http://discerningtheworld.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/a-new-breed-are-you-one-of-them/ which has some other interesting articles too so go and check it out and cheers Debbie for this one
A New Breed
by Jewel van der Merwe
The thought of something �new� is always scintillating to the senses. In a society that from childhood is looking for a new fad, it is not surprising that a preposterous new doctrine would be sweeping the church. The most disconcerting aspect is that this time we can not question this doctrine. It must be accepted blindly as a �new revelation� coming from the �anointed� Last Day �prophets.� If we question, we are: (1) divisive, (2) have a �Jezebel spirit� and even, (3) called witches.
I am receiving calls from around the country with the same cry, �What is happening?� Every caller I have spoken to has been a dear Christian who truly loves the Lord. Children of God are confused and full of questions. Many are threatened with discipline if they don�t �go with the flow�. If a �prophet� is questioned, the questioner is condemned. There is obviously a spiritual elitism attached to those who become part of the �New Thing�. When I questioned my friend who has got involved, she told me that I have a �wrong spirit� and she hung up the phone! Those that are following the �prophets� blindly are doing so because they sincerely feel they have finally found it! This is the �revival� that they�ve been looking for. They have evolved into a mindset that actually believes that whatever is said in the name of the Lord is right. Because the so-called prophets seem to speak with authority, utter prophecies that sometimes come true, reveal secrets and enjoy the support of many big names, people by the scores readily accept without any question whatever they speak. The current wave of �revival� is said to be the �new thing� God is doing throughout the earth and is unlike anything the Church has ever experienced before. Oh yes, it must be said that this revival without any doubt is different, and is one of a kind. Everywhere it is spread it is causing a stir and sweeping people off their feet. Sweeping people into what? This is a distressing question. After researching the transcripts of many tapes, speaking to many directly or indirectly involved and reading extensively, the answer to the aforementioned question was quite frightening! Below is a list of some of the characteristics that identify the NEW REVIVAL based on their own tapes.
THE NEW REVIVAL CHARACTERISTICS
1. It is a revival of the prophets that use the Holy Scriptures deceitfully.
2. It is a revival of �sorcery� (the magic art of manipulating people). People are being manipulated, sometimes by fear and other times by sheer deception, into blindly receiving unscriptural views.
3. It is a revival that wants to see the walls of the Churches and Denominations crumble and come under the authority, structure and network of the NEW BREED.
4. It is a revival of a NEW BREED that discriminates against Israel and the part of the Church that doesn�t go along with their teaching.
5. It is a revival that rejects the literal Rapture of the Church.
6. It is a revival that rejects SOUND DOCTRINE as a basis for unity.
7. It is a revival that teaches that it is wrong to judge the prophets according to the Word of God.
8. It is a revival that says that the Church (corporately) is the literal presence of Christ, so don�t look for another.
9. It is a revival that says, �Touch not God�s anointed.� The interpretation being: No matter what is said or how wrong it is, do not question. Christians dare not question or criticize the unscriptural utterances and practices of the prophets, for if they do, they are judged worthy of punishment.
10. It is a revival obsessed with a NEW BREED of people and a political agenda on earth.
11. It is a revival bent on turning the youth into a militant people with a war-like mentality designed to take dominion of the world and if need be � by force.
12. This new revival owes its character to a group of specific persons who are misinterpreting the Bible, and like the cults, supplementing it with their own dreams, visions and mystic ideas. Christian, if you fall for their doctrine, you are perfectly set up for deception. Be careful you are not swept off your feet into the GREAT DECEPTION � THE LIE!
One of the most familiar phrases we are hearing is �A NEW BREED OF PEOPLE�.
According to Kevin Springer in EQUIPPING, Fall, 1989, (Vol. 3, No.4) speaking of Paul Cain he said: �God created in Paul a living testament of the type of men that one day would be called a NEW BREED. He directed Paul to sacrifice everything � his large ministry, the possibility of marriage, wealth, fame. His life was picked clean, so he could truly claim that all he has and is comes from the Lord.� This sounds like a very noble, holy and righteous life. However, this certainly is not a picture of a NEW BREED. Haven�t monks been doing the same thing for centuries? In fact, is this elitist doctrine not of the seed of Phariseeism?
The proponents of this form of godliness are into error. They need to be spoken to and warned of the error of their ways, but the problem is they take correction to mean persecution. Some are so deeply involved in their errors that it would take a miracle to save them. It is generally difficult to save a man from an elitist mindset. It is a form of captivity hard to break.
How dare these �prophets� speak of an exclusive BREED of people being raised up in these last days? The whole idea suggests that the Church, ever since its inception, has failed to produce the quality of saints the NEW BREED of �prophets� is producing. They believe that until this time, the Church has been a failure. What a presumptuous claim at the expense of the Holy Scriptures and the history of the Church. History is brimming over with accounts of simple and great Christian men and women who lived beautiful, exemplary and spiritual lives. In untold numbers they laid down their lives to the glory of God. Great feats and wonders have followed the heroes of faith throughout the Church age. Some have been unnoticed and others wellknown. When Christ returns, the heavenly records will show the numberless multitudes who loved their Lord and gave their lives to His holiness and grace. Their witness throughout the ages rings loud and clear. �Of a truth. . . God is no respecter of persons.�
�For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.� Ephesians 2:8, 9.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that a NEW BREED of people shall arise in the last days. According to the Scriptures we are all equal in His sight (Galatians 3:2] and we are all complete in Him (Colossians 2:10). Exactly what are these �prophets� looking for that Christ has not already accomplished on the Cross for all His saints? Are they looking for Christ to die again to bring in a NEW BREED out of the Church? God forbid!
�For if we sin willfully (i.e. reject the efficacy of the cross) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.� Hebrews 10:26.
The whole NEW BREED concept is totally unscriptural. The only way they can attempt to prove their false doctrine is to twist, misquote or allegorize the Scriptures. According to the �prophets� all believers are not a part of the NEW BREED because it is reserved for a special quality of Christian in the last days. But Praise God, the Bible refutes this fallacy. On the contrary, it gives all believers the following assurance:
1. All believers are equal in Christ. Galatians 3:28.
2. All believers are new creatures. II Corinthians 5:17.
3. All believers are made righteous by faith, that is of grace. Romans 4:16.
4. All believers are of the seed of Abraham. Romans 4:16.
5. All believers were baptized into one body. I Corinthians 12:13.
6. All believers are members of the body of Christ. I Corinthians 12:14.
7. All believers are part of the ELECT. I Peter 1:2.
8. All believers are a CHOSEN GENERATION. I Peter 2:1, 2.
9. All believers are �born again.� John 3:3, 15.
10. All believers are lively stones and a holy priesthood. I Peter 2:5.
The word BREED is not found once in Scripture, much less the term A NEW BREED. My appeal to the �prophets� is: Repent, stay with the Word of God, abandon the concepts that come from the cults and purge your doctrine from this unholy leaven.
Paul Cain, who is one of the NEW BREED, is looking for others who also fit this description. The years roll by and then he met Mike Bickle and several of his colleagues from the Kansas City Fellowship. At that point Paul Cain said he came out of his desert experience. By meeting these men in 1987, he met the FIRST FRUITS of the NEW BREED. There seemed to be a real connection immediately. Bob Jones, a �prophet� has called Paul Cain �the most anointed prophet in the world today.� For a number of years already, the Kansas City Fellowship had been listening carefully to the words of this �prophet� in their midst. Bob Jones also spoke about a NEW BREED.
�The children are the best of all the generations that have ever been upon the face of the earth. . . those ELECTED SEEDS that will glorify Christ in the last days. .. they will move into things of the supernatural that no one has ever been in the Bible � They�ll move in it consistently. . . they themselves will be that generation that�s raised up to put death itself underneath their feet. . . . a church that has reached the full maturity of the god- man!� (Transcripts, Kansas City Fellowship, 1988 Interview Bob Jones with Mike Bickle).
Here again we have the popular theme of the modern �prophets� � A NEW BREED. According to their accounts I see three streams of people in the world (1) the unsaved, (2) the Church and (3) the NEW BREED. This NEW BREED is also the ELECTED SEEDS, the BEST OF ALL GENERATIONS, a BREED that will �put death itself underneath their feet.� It should be quite obvious to all by now that Bob Jones, Paul Cain and other prophets of their company are ardent believers in the doctrine of �The Manifest Sons of God�. Basically, this doctrine rejects the literal and personal return of Christ for His Church, which in a moment � in the twinkling of an eye will put on immortality, incorruption and be translated into the Presence of the Lord in the air. All the evidence shows that these �prophets� with all their alleged spiritual powers, angel companions and experiences are definitely preaching �another gospel�. This gospel is in total opposition to the Gospel of Christ.
�Marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.� Galatians 1:6-8.
This NEW BREED mentality is one of the most dangerous and divisive doctrines facing the Church. It threatens existing denominations and churches across the nation. Pastors, brace yourselves to face growing confusion as a result!
Again, it needs to be emphasized that this NEW BREED doctrine is the kernel thought that undergirds most of the known cults. Hitler, in the name of God was religiously obsessed with the idea of a NEW BREED of people, a PURE RACE, a NEW GENERATION and A NEW ORDER. Books and publications have attributed the rise of the Third Reich to the spirit of occultism. Many of the great theologians in Germany at that time gave Hitler�s �pure race� ideology theological cohesiveness. Amazingly we are now seeing history repeat itself. However the modern �prophets� interpret their NEW BREED of religion, the fact remains it is the same seed thought (elitism) that gave rise to Hitler�s THIRD REICH that plagued Germany and the world. It was this spirit of �elitism� that led to anti-Semitism. Nazism, the New Age Movement and the NEW BREED are one and the same: they are merely different manifestations of the same evil seed � �elitism�.
The NEW BREED spirit in Hitler�s day permeated the churches in Germany. One of the first things the NEW BREEDERS sought to do in support of their �elitist� race was to unite all the churches in Germany. With this NEW WAVE of �elitism� once again flooding the Church, it comes as no surprise to hear the apostate Church speaking of UNITING all the churches at the expense of SOUND DOCTRINE.
Let us examine this teaching further:
This �new doctrine� which is ablaze in the Church today actually dates back to the 2nd century A.D. It is once again raising its deceitful head, only this time with ferocious impetus calculated to control the minds and destinies of gullible people. The most frightening aspect of all this is that sincere and well-meaning Christians in great numbers are being seduced in the name of God into the world of the cults. This �new doctrine� is coming in the guise of several other names such as: THE MELCHIZEDEK ORDER, NEW APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, THE NEW THING and THE THIRD WAVE. Basically, this age-old doctrine has undergirded the cults ever since the inception of the Church. The essence of the philosophy of �elitism� is combined with religion, politics and secularism. History proves that it engenders a form of inspiration that leads to cruel domination, discrimination, anti-Semitism, persecution and bitter wars.
The so-called �prophets� make bold boasts that the NEW BREED of leaders, i.e. the �NEW BREED of Apostles and Prophets� will perfect the �NEW BREED of People� and usher in the �New Order� of government on the earth. The question we need to ask is: �What is the source of reference for their outrageous claims?� It is certainly not in the pages of Scripture, nor can it be found in the literal interpretation of the Scriptures. Before answering the question we must admit that they do use the Bible as a reference point, but the shame is that they allegorize the Scriptures as do the cults to fit their so-called new �elitist� doctrine.
The following quote is a typical case among many quotes of how the NEW BREED of leaders using the allegorical method of interpretation wrest the Scriptures in support of their unbiblical concepts.
�During the summer of 1988, God gave me these words: �Do not call to mind the former things, or ponder things of the past. Behold, I will do something new, now it will spring forth; will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, rivers in the desert. The beasts of the field will glorify Me; the jackals and the ostriches; because I have given waters in the wilderness and rivers in the desert, to give drink to My chosen people. The people whom I formed for Myself, will declare My praise� (Isaiah 43:18-21).
[Application:]
It now appears that God is raising up a �NEW BREED� of leadership to do the �new thing.� This NEW BREED will be young and fresh, with a pioneering spirit � whether chronologically young or old in age.
Last year I had the opportunity to meet several young men whom I believe represent this NEW BREED of leadership. . . . We invite you to learn more about Mike Bickle, a part of God�s �NEW BREED� for the �90s.� (Fullness Fellowship, COMMUNIQUE, Volume 3, No.4, April 1990).
The literal interpretation of the above text clearly applies to Israel. God promises Israel a time of restoration, prosperity and grace when Israel, as a chosen nation, will indeed �show forth His praise�. Unfortunately, a great part of Christendom use the allegorical method to apply certain Scriptures with reference to Israel exclusively to the Church. Applying Scripture pertaining to Israel as being the Church is one thing, but when applied to an exclusive �NEW BREED� �in� or �apart� from the Church is quite another equation. Not only do we have here an elitist hierarchy element, but to all intents and purposes a NEW BREED that is strikingly parallel with the doctrine of the New Age cult.
This all sounds like a very serious indictment. Indeed our conclusions are very sobering. There is so much more that could be said. We sincerely believe many of those who are promulgating this NEW THING are very sincere people who feel that this is what they have been looking for all their lives. Some who are part of this �New Thing� even compare themselves with Simeon who proclaimed upon seeing Christ, �Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation�� They honestly feel that this is the �revival� for which they have been praying.
We pray for every soul who loves the Word of God to see the error of this deception before it is eternally too late! My prayer is that you will �earnestly contend for the faith that was delivered once to the saints�.
Bob is pastor of The Dwelling Place Family Church in San Jacinto (Hemet), California since 1975. He teaches on strategic intercession, helping mobilize churches cross-denominationally. He is a committed member of the Spiritual Warfare Network and is on the Executive Board of Generals of Intercession. Bob was widely interviewed and used extensively as a source on the film "Transformations" (http://www.geocities.com/smithtj.geo/transformations.html), which made claims of transformation of Hemet, California (which could not be validated). Bob's church is associated with Peter Wagner/Cindy Jacobs (Generals of Intercession). The Generals of Intercession are headed by Cindy Jacobs, who attends the Vineyard church pastored by Dutch Sheets (see more information below). The Dwelling Place church which Bob Beckett pastors is into the laughter movement.
Francis Frangipane's church has been involved in the laughter movement for a number of years and has written several books. Lighthouses of Prayer Quote from this page: ""God has entrusted us to fill His plans and purposes for reaching our cities for Him. He has called, chosen, and commissioned us to conquer our city". I see nothing in scripture about conquering cities. Christ said his kingdom is not of this world. We are to preach the gospel and disciple people. Francis goes on to say - "That's not too far fetched to imagine. It's happened in past revivals and it's happening in cities today. In Resistencia, Argentina, (population 400,000) Ed Silvoso and his team joined forces with many of the pastors, incorporating prayer evangelism of an entire city! (Note: This is linked to the laughter/dominionist movement - see also http://www.generals.org/).
Francis Frangipane holds to the view that the churches in a city must be united in order for revival to take place (ref: The House of the Lord, pp12,180). Sees filling the people with "doctrines instead of Deity" (House, pp36,181)as opposing forces rather than accepting the fact that sound doctrine points to Jesus Christ. Francis says that "We all want the Lord but only the bride will go so far as to seek him and bring him back to the house" (pp.46,182). This appears to suggest that there are those who seek God but who are not part of the bride. Francis says that if the church is united, then the Holy Spirit will actually displace the powers of darkness in the cities (pp.51,183). This suggests that it is our work in creating unity that causes the Holy Spirit to act rather than the will of God. Francis says that we should not look for apostasy anywhere but our own hearts, in contradiction to scripture that tells us to test the spirits (pp.83-84,187). he teaches that the church has been delegated all the authority that Jesus has - all we need to do is return to the same teaching. Scripture says that all authority was given to Jesus (Matt 28:18-19), and that we are under the authority of Jesus, not equal in authority to him. Francis opposes discernment ministries within the churches, comparing them to demons and accusers of the brethren (pp.131-134).
Francis Frangipane also believes that before revival will comes, that the church in each city must be structured in a form of what is known as "heavy shepherding" (not his term), where one person with a "Father gifting" oversees the other pastors in an apostolic role, and delegates task to them, while the pastors who place themselves under his authority become the "overseers" of the citywide church (Ref: Impact Nations, Influence Cities conference, Red Deer Alberta, March 5/97 7:15pm session, Tape 12b).
Francis Frangipane has been associated with the "Kansas City Prophets". http://www.inchristsimage.org/Home_40.asp http://www.inchristsimage.org/LightHousesOfPrayer_40.asp
Dutch Sheets
Dutch pastors a Vineyard church which is into the laughter movement. He wrote the book, ""River of God"", endorsed by Rick Joyner (a "prophet" in the laughter and restorationist/dominionist movement), Cindy Jacobs and Peter Wagner. Involved in the National School of the Prophets; Sponsor: Global Harvest Ministries; Speakers: Peter Wagner - Convener, Mike Bickle (Pastor of the Kansas City Fellowship, now the Metro city Fellowship - see http://www.geocities.com/smithtj.geo/vine3is5.html),
Paul Cain
(Laughter movement prophet, former second in command to William Branham),
Jack Deere (former chief theologian for the Vineyard), John Eckhardt, Kingsley Fletcher, Ted Haggard, Bill Hamon, Cindy Jacobs, Jim Laffoon, Chuck Pierce, Rick Joyner, Dutch Sheets, and Barbara Yoder. Some of Dutch Sheets doctrines include a belief that man has absolute authority over the earth and that Gods needs us to permit him to act (intercessory prayer) or he cannot act upon on earth.
http://www.tcb.hm/books/dutch_sheets.html
http://www.proaxis.com/~lesyoder/events.htm
George Otis Jr.
George Otis Jr. wrote a book in 1978 which has become one of the primary books endorsed by the modern version of the Moral Government of God Theology movement which denies the orthodox view of Christ's substitutionary death on the cross paying for our sins, the doctrine of the original sin and the sin nature of man, among other things. George Otis Jr. is on the board of the church in Cali, Colombia which is pastored by Ruth Ruibal, and which is featured in George Otis Jr..'s film "Transformations".
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein/m05.html
Paul Cain
Over 50 years ago, William Branham, George Warnock, Paul Cain and others attempted to introduce Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God teachings into the Pentecostal movement. In 1949, however, the Assemblies of God officially rejected the Latter Rain/ Manifest Sons of God doctrine as heresy. The cult went underground but surfaced again in the 1960's as the Manchild Company. Disregarding the Assemblies of God decision, Paul Cain, the Kansas City Prophets and Vineyard Ministries have subsequently reintroduced and successfully established this false doctrine in the Pentecostal churches.
Michael Pierce runs the "Christ For Your City" ministries out of London Ontario. This ministry is dedicated to directing and coordinating efforts to bring ""revival"" to cities using a pre-set agenda/processed sequence of events. Michael Pierce and his ministry "Christ for Your City" endorse and recommends books by authors such as Peter C. Wagner, Cindy Jacobs, Dutch Sheets, Bob Beckette, George Otis Jr., etc. Michael is a member of the Western Ontario Renewal Network which endorses the Toronto Blessing/Holy Laughter movement. http://www.gtn.net/dreid/worn.htm
John Dawson
John Dawson is director of Youth With a Mission (YWAM) in Los Angeles, California, and teaches on spiritual warfare (of the form taught by Peter Wagner)
Peter C. Wagner
Wagner's World Prayer Center http://www.wpccs.org/is situated on the property of Ted Haggard's charismatic New Life Church, a church where people reportedly see angels. One of the many groups that Peter Wagner has formed or is involved with is called the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders, an internationally recognized authority on prayer and spiritual warfare and one of the founders of the prayer center. Among those present were Chuck Pierce, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, Mike Bickle and Tommy Tenney.The group's statement was released after they met in Colorado at the end of February 2000. The council--formed to provide a corporate forum for leaders with a recognized prophetic gift-- was born out of a similar gathering at the prayer center in January. At that time the group-- which included many of those who met last month--warned of terrorist attacks killing people on American soil if churches did not pray fervently. They also say that it is necessary that every city has an Apostolic leadership over it before the end of 2003.
Involved with the Generals of Intercessions and Peter Wagner's Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders. One of the prophecies of the council is "The church will be in key transition period between 2000-2003. During this period the youth in particular will be transitioning into revival. It is especially important for the apostolic government to be initially established and functioning in our cities by Oct 2003 if we are to see the transformations that God wants to release." This group, which includes people such as Peter Wagner apparently believe in the restoration of the apostolic ministry. Cindy Jacob's has been involved in the spiritual warfare movement for a number of years, and was involved in the Argentinian revival (ref: Ed Silvoso) which was an earlier part of the Holy Laughter movement, and which was one of the triggers for the Toronto Blessing and Pensacola Outpouring (see following website for more information on the Toronto Blessing and Pensacola Outpouring).
Ed Silvoso is Director of Harvest Evangelism. He worked for several years in crusade outreaches with his brother-in-law, evangelist Luis Palau, before founding Harvest Evangelism to assist the church in Argentina in reaching the entire nation for Christ.Ed is the author of "That None should perish" and "Taking our Cities for Christ". He believes that unity is essential for the world to believe. In an interview a few years back, Ed Silvoso endorses the Toronto Blessing/Holy laughter, drunkenness in the spirit, etc..(Ref: Interview with Noel Stanton of the Jesus Army Newspaper)
http://www.Jesus.org.uk/es.html
Ruth Ruibal
In 1973, Ruth Ruibal worked as a short term consultant for the Pan American Health Organization/World Health Organization when she met Julio Ruibal, then known as the ""Apostle of the Andes"". Some months later Julio asked Ruth to join him in establishing a local church in La Paz, Bolivia. That church, Ekklesia, established in 1974, now claims 12,000 members and has daughter churches in every state in the country, as well as television and radio stations. In 1976 Julio and Ruth were married and spent their first year studying in the graduate program at Multnomah School of the Bible in Portland, Oregon. In 1978 they went to Cali, Colombia, where they established another local church, Ekklesia Christian Colombian Center where Ruth has served as senior pastor since her husband's death. Ruth Ruibal was appointed by the Association as one of the 15 elders presiding over the city. She is one of the key leaders in promoting unity among the churches in Cali as well as abroad. Ruth Ruibal is a member of The Sentinel Group founded and presided by George Otis, Jr., who also produced and sells the "Transformations" movie which feature Ruth Ruibal during it's presentation of Cali.
Julio Ruibal
In December 1995 Dr. Ruibal was killed. In the movie, and in the Ruth Ruibal newsletters, it indicates that the owner of the land next to the church killed him over a property dispute (which, according to the Ruibal Foundation newsletters, continues to this day), but on the Ruibal Foundation website, it says that Julio was "martyred for the Gospel of Jesus Christ". After Julio's death, Ruth Ruibal has continued as senior pastor of the church, ministering along with Rev. David Martinez, elder. Thomas Multhee Thomas Multhee is the pastor of the "Prayer Cave" in Kiambu, Kenya, and which is featured in the George Otis Jr. film "Transformations". The Prayer Cave is a "Word of Faith" church, under the ministry of Rudi and Sharon Swanepoel. They do not teach sound Biblical Christian doctrine, but rather teach Word-Faith doctrine. Swanepoel, on their website indicate that they have been impacted by the ministries such as Rodney Howard Browne and his brother Gil. Rudi is an ordained minister of the Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa. They appear to support "drunkenness in the spirit".
Ted Haggard
Pastor Ted Haggard of Colorado Springs, mentioned above as the narrator
here's a quote from Bill Johnson who didnt make it to your little list:
"It's difficult to get the same fruit as the early church when we value a book they didn't have more than the Holy Spirit they did have."
He is the senior pastor of a church in Redding California who has seen multiple cases of 4th stage cancer healed. He has declared his city "cancer free zone"
The whole church is taught to go out and proclaim the love of Abba Father...healings are common, in fact people travel across the world to get prayer at that church and it's not the pastor who prays for them, it's just the congregants and they're getting healed.
what does this mean? "On earth as it is in heaven"
could it possibly mean that when we pray for sickness, we can say hey, there isnt any sickness in heaven, why? because where God is, there is no sickness. Does that mean sickness is from the devil? Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.. Do you think Gods will is for any of His kids to be sick?
I know I'm rambling but I'm so sick n tired of you guys copy and pasting this stuff and the worst part is that I feel bad for you becuz you have never experienced a manifestation of the Lord. You make fun but, falling out under the power of the Holy spirit is life changing.
It knocks the religious spirit right out of you! Your whole theology will change. I know because that is what happened to me.
In your article it speaks of John Wimber, one of the men who started the Vineyard movement. Do you know that the anointing was so strong on this man of God that people were healed of disease, cancer, blindness, def mute and much more. He used very little words when peole got healed but the POWER of God came and healed hundreds if not thousands. He usually only said "holy spirit come"
John Wimber goes back with Chuck Smith, they were good friends who each started a ministry. In fact, if I remember correctly, John was involved with Calvary chapel and branched off. chuck Smith believes in miracles, signs and wonders...over the years the ministry got watered down.
Paul Cain is another powerful man of god with a tremendous gift of prophecy, he could pick you out of a crowd and tell you your address or phone number. That man heard from the Lord! then he would deliver a beautiful word to the person which usually led to repentance.
The things the person wrote about in the article brings up movements and/or individuals with tremendous gifts and just picks them apart.
Sadly, you may never know the joy of being free enough to understand.
I know 99% of you dont have the capacity to comprehend anything outside the box you put God in. Must be really boring to serve a God who is predictable.
If I offended anyone I apologize, I am only standing up for what I know is truth and if we cant get passed arguing over this stuff then the devil has us where he wants us.
STUCK IN RELIGION!
I love you guys and dont want to hurt anyone and it probably doesnt do me any good to post this but mark mywords...you will come into an experience with the power of the spirit of the Lord and you will not be able to explain it.
Then what...? That would be just horrible if you found yourself in a Vineyard church. shaking and prophesying...oh my goodness...your friends would see you and call you heretical. Wow, your life would be over, but the chains would be broken and you would be free to experience everything that God has in store for you.
First, let me say that YES, there are apostles and prophets today. I'm a Pentecostal minister who's open to them.
But I think most who claim to be them these days are often found very wanting in less glamorous things like integrity, honesty, doctrinal purity and maturity. When that occurs, you'd better be watching out.
The following link contains articles on how the "five fold" ministry, in which apostles and prophets are claimed to be the "leading" ministries among them, is grossly perverted by that kind of carnality to something Jesus and the Biblical apostles never intended to occur:
