And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
IF "all Israel" is the body of believers, then you must also say that Jacob is the body of believers that Christ "shall turn away ungodliness from", or you throw the entire verse out of context. There is NO verse in the Bible that speaks of Jacob as referring to the Church or body of believers.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
In the above verse, and because you believe Israel is the body of believers, you need to interpret it as blindness in part is happened to the body of believers until the fullness of the Gentiles. It makes absolutely no sense to say that "Israel" in Romans 11 is referring to the body of believers.
For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Who are "them" that there is a covenant made to take away their sins? In your view, and in order to keep the entire of Romans 11 in context with your belief, "them" would have to be the body of believers and not national Israel. In the next verse "they" who are enemies, are "them" being spoken of in the previous verse. And again, you would have to say 'they' are the body of believers, and they are enemies? To who? And for whose sake? And who is the "election" that are "beloved for the fathers' sakes."? The body of believers again?
I will ask again; what of all the promises God has made to Israel as a nation and as a people in the OT?
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Your view has God casting off His people. What a shame.
But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
This is a promise to Israel. It's a covenant He made with Israel. I believe He will keep that promise. To believe that God is done with Israel, that she has no future, is to declare that God reneged on His covenant and promise to Israel.
Isaiah 45: 16-17 says " Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
16. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end."
Again, you have to interpret the Bible with Scripture, not with man made theology, i.e., dispensationalism.
The New Testament, for Christians, interprets the Old Testament.
Paul says in Romans 9: 6-8 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
In light of Romans 9: 6-8 Isaiah 45: 17 is saying that the elect is Israel, not ethnic Israel who remain unsaved.
If you have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance look for verses in the prophets predicting that Gentiles are to be brought into Israel.
I cited several other New Testament Scriptures above which contradict the idea what all ethnic Israel is saved or is going to be saved in some future vague way. But followers of dispensationalism cannot accept those New Testament Scriptures, which is saying they reject parts of the New Testament. Or, they are double minded, accepting the verses and at the same time rejecting them.
I understand this Romans chapter 9:6 to say, "not as though the word of God has taken no effect. For (becasue) they are not (all) Israel, which (who) are of (in) Israel. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they called the children of Abraham, BUT IN ISAAC SHALL (WILL) your seed be called."
If one continues to read this chapter you will find that God is saying that Abraham's seed is also of Ishaml who was not the promise son to Abraham.
Although God also promised to bless Ishmal, and there are those who will also be saved from Ishmal's seed who receive the Lord Jesus Christ by faith...
But Isaac is the promised son God made to Abraham therefore, this is the Israel whom God is speaking about Abraham's physical decendants of promise through Issac, and Jacob, the people (nation) of Israel who are their descendants.
Abraham's spiritual and some of Ishmal's descendants (Gentiles) of adoption are all of whom by faith receive the Jesus Christ.
Funny, how theologians take one word out of God Holy Word and make a theology and a doctrine out of it, instead of preaching and teaching what God has written at face value.
The word DISPENASTION is only mention four times in the Bible New Testament. I think Gary, and Jude posted those verses wherein Paul wrote, and they have nothing whatsoever to do with Israel being saved or not being saved.
DISPENSATION as Paul write mean stewardship, office, commssion, administration assignment, authority, God's plan of salvation for everyone, not just Israel but everyone. But the word dispensation has become a doctrine and a throplogical concept directed adn discussion as to whether all of Israel will be saved or if any Jews will be saved.
I Corinthian chapter 9; Ephesians chapter 1 and chpater3; Colossians chapter 1.
In all these verses and writings, Paul is speaking about according to God's own authority and good pleasrue, sovereign will, God appointed, administered, commissioned, had a plan for his work in the ministry, just as He has for all of us in due season/God's set timing (the dispensation of time),..
If God's promise to Abraham has already been fulfill then Paul's writing are in error. And if God has forgotten Israel and she will not be saved or restored, then Isaiah's prophecies are in error, and God should have made Himself a little more clearer to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and Isaiahwhen He made the covenenat promise to them, and gave the prophcy to Isiah..
And if ALL OF Israel is the church, then God should have explained this to Paul and made sure Paul claritfy this in his writings, instead of saying that the NATION OF ISRAEL would be saved and restored, and that the people whom God foreknew with a purpose and a promise to restore her is not about Israel the nation, but is about all Jews and Gentiles, the church, who beileve in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Ad If what we read in the Bible is in error and that ALL OF ISRAEL WILL NOT BE RESTORED AND SAVED, then we ALL ARE IN TROUBLE...I'm ' just saying.
Oh, I forgot, then when Jesus comes to set uo His earth kingdom and redeems Israel and the church, maybe He should find a different spot instead of setting it up in Jerusalem as He has promised, ... I'll start checking around to see if that is enough land in Texas for Him to set up His kingdom and call all of Zion unto Him...
Mark, if a person don't know Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviorand Redeemer, I don't think your genes or JEANS are going to save ya...:ROFL::bouncy:
*sigh* For the third time, what do you do with the Biblical promises/covenant God has reserved for Israel?
For one who claims "The New Testament, for Christians, interprets the Old Testament.", and considering that greater than 50% of the prophetic books of the Bible are about the redemption of the House and Nation of Israel, surely you must have something to support your view as to what God does with those promises.
Are the Jewish people no longer God's chosen people?
Does His word return to Him unfulfilled because He broke His promises with Israel, and no longer has a plan, purpose or covenant with them, thus they are rejected by God and become a nation of people without hope?
Do you replace all of Israel, even what is written in the Old Testament regarding her, with the Church?
I suspect that you would have to re-interpret the OT to deal with those promises unless you actually believe God broke His promises and covenant with a Israel and His chosen people.
Your suggestion to refer to the Old Testament verses 'predicting that Gentiles are to be brought into Israel' is a moot point since you don't see a distinction between Gentiles and national Israel..
"For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob." -Isaiah 14:1
Guess who the "strangers" are? And who is Jacob and Israel if not a literal People and Nation? Or do you believe the above verse is no longer applicable to Israel?
I think most of you should read what Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) said about Israel in Dialogue with Trypho. Just looking at chapter XI the last sentence we read "For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed."
James, you and halfback might as well throw out the Old Testament promises of God to HIS people because you obviously believe they have no affect.
In your 'all Israel means spiritual Israel in the New Testament' belief, ie, body of believers, you replace a literal nation and a literal people with yourself as a believer and call yourself and the body of believers, "spiritual Israel".
"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." -Matt 19:28
Which spiritual Tribe of spiritual Israel do you belong to?
"When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." -Luke 7:9
Again, you say Israel in the NT means spiritual Israel to which you belong. Jesus found more faith in the Centurion than He did in His own people. Guess your "spiritual Israel" is without faith. Not good, considering Israel = spiritual Israel = a body of believers to which you belong.
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." -Acts 2:36
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole." -Acts 4:10
Wow. Israel, who is really "spiritual Israel" and comprised of born-again believers, crucified the Lord [as believers].
"Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices [by the space of] forty years in the wilderness?" -Acts 7:42
Okay now.. lets "Have RESPECT for the body of Christ, by STUDYING church history!!". Show me in Church history where Israel, which is really "spiritual Israel" in the NT, spent 40 years in the wilderness offering sacrifices to the Lord. Should be no problem for you, right, since "it should guide our interpretation of Scripture"?
"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." -Romans 10:1
What's Paul saying here? He has a desire for spiritual Israel, who in your view are believers, to be saved? As believers aren't we already saved?
"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." -Romans 11:7-8,25
Explain to me why a "spiritual Israel", a body of believers, would be blinded in part. Why God would give us a spirit of slumber and eyes and ears that don't see or hear UNTO THIS DAY!
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" -Romans 11:26
AS IT IS WRITTEN-
"And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever." -Isaiah 59:20-21
Does your "Church history" include a reference to the body of believers, the Church, as Jacob? Before you go labeling and accusing people of having huge holes in their beliefs, check the crater in your own.
"But it is difficult to speak of Scofield's "Israel" of the end-times as consisting of "Jewish Christians," because they are not in the Church, and they are not dealt with on the same terms as the Christians who are of the Church. They are "God's earthly people," according to Scofield, as distinguished from the Church, who are God's "heavenly people." They are the "wife of Jehovah" and not the "bride of Christ," and so forth. Such teachings of the classic dispensationalist theology rigorously maintained the distinction between "Israel" and "the Church." If this distinction is to be upheld in Galatians 6:16 then presumably the "Israel of God" must be taken as a reference to the eschatological Israel who are to be saved by a different gospel, after Paul's own gospel dispensation has ended. [4] But one rarely hears this kind of pure and radical dispensationalist teaching now. Today dispensationalists seem to be in a muddle, having moved away from consistency in distinguishing Israel and the Church. Israel may now be spoken of as a part of the Church, and so there is a special and privileged class of "Jewish Christians" within the body of Christ. [5]"
In his footnote (5) he says:
"This tendency in Dispensationalism seems to have come to full bloom in the so-called "Messianic Judaism" movement of the past thirty years, which is clearly sectarian in nature. Many people, including some prominent missionaries to the Jews, have expressed migivings about the whole direction of this movement. Fred Klett (a Jewish evangelist associated with the Presbyterian Church in America) addressed the problem in a conference paper presented at the 19th annual North America conference of the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism, March 11-13, 2002. He wrote: "Traditional Dispensationalism teaches that during the present age Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus are all part of the church. The distinction between the church and Israel is essentially theoretical and of little practical consequence in the present dispensation. As Messianic Judaism struggled for its distinct identity, it departed from some elements of Dispensationalism but kept others. Messianic Judaism retained the Dispensational church-Israel distinction, but what was only theoretical in older Dispensationalism is brought into the present. Messianic Judaism has immanentized the eschaton, or in plainer English, what is future for Dispensationalists, a separate millennial plan for Israel, Messianic Judaism has brought into immediate reality. In the present situation, they believe, God has a separate plan, additional promises, and unique covenant obligations for Jewish believers. This confusion of epochs is used by Fischer to justify Gentiles converting to Messianic Judaism. He argues that, since this will be done during the 'millennium,' why not now?" ("The Centrality of Messiah and the Theological Direction of the Messianic Movement..."
During the present age Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ are all part of the church, according to this view of dispensationalism. Unsaved Jews, those who reject Christ, and who are the vast majority of Jews, in dispensationalism are God's other people, who this theology claims will be saved in mass later.
Footnote (5) goes on to say:
"Klett's phrase "immanentized the eschaton" is very apt, but he does not seem to realize that this confusion has for a long time been normal in popular Dispensationalism. In 1970, Hal Lindsey's book The Late Great Planet Earth showed it clearly enough. "Messianic Judaism" is more of an outgrowth than a cause of this confusion. The great majority of people involved in "Messianic Judaism" are not Jewish--they are mostly Gentile charismatics, who apparently have become so carried away with their end-times fantasies about the Jews that they have begun to play the part themselves. One well-informed source, Stan Telchin of the "Jews for Jesus" ministry, estimates that between eighty and ninety percent of the people involved in "Messianic Judaism" are Gentiles, and he complains that for all its emphasis on Jewishness the movement has failed to attract Jews. He tells of one Jewish woman who was repelled by the spectacle of Gentiles "worshipping the symbols of Judaism," searching their family histories for Jewish ancestors, and trying to observe the ritual commandments of the Torah like Orthodox Jews. She left this "Messianic" scene "filled to overflowing by the wanabees and the Pharisees" and joined an ordinary Christian church where Christ was the center of attention, not Judaism (Messianic Judaism is Not Christianity [Grand Rapids: Chosen, 2004], p. 82)."
It is interesting that he says the majority of people in Messianic Judaism are Gentiles. Most Jews I have known are Caucasians.
The Mormons claim to be descendants of Hebrews, although most or almost all of them are Caucasians, and probably cannot prove they have Hebrew blood. Again, they have accepted the idea that Jews, or Hebrews, are the chosen race, and want to have part of that blood in them.
On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon
"The understanding of Joseph Smith, and, traditionally, of Mormons in general, is that the Book of Mormon indicates that the Lamanites, descended from Lehi, are a "remnant of the House of Israel"
Apparently the Mormons have claimed to be descendants of the Lamanites.
