Thread: Galations proves that we should keep the Torah
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Galations proves that we should keep the Torah
Posted : 20 Sep, 2010 02:44 AM
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Messiah has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
The yoke of bondage is (as we discussed in previous chapters) the 'good news of the circumcision.' As we discussed, Peter agreed with this in Acts 15:10-11. See the previous chapter discussions for more information.
Circumcision
At this point, Paul begins to make some important statements about circumcision and its role in the true 'good news'. In short, circumcision is not part of the good news of Yahushua in the sense that whether we we can still receive salvation whether we are circumcised or uncircumcised, . Let's continue in Galatians 5:
Galatians 5:2-5 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Messiah will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Messiah, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
One of the most important things to remember when reading the book of Galatians is that he is speaking to a certain group of people. In this case, he is speaking to the Galatians who were about to fall prey to a false 'good news'. As is evidenced by Paul's statements, "You have become estranged from Messiah, you who attempt to be justified by law" and "For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith," the subject matter at hand is whether or not circumcision is a part of the true good news that brings salvation.
Paul was NOT against circumcision if done for the right reasons. Proof of this is found in (once again) Paul's own example and practice:
Acts 16:1-3 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: 2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
In light of the common interpretation of Galatians 5, Paul was doing the very thing that most people think Paul was telling the Galatians not to do! Was he circumcising Timothy so that "Messiah could profit him nothing" and so that he would become "estranged from Messiah?"
Galatians 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Messiah, you who [attempt] [to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Why did Paul tell the Galatians that they would be "fallen from grace," "estranged from Messiah," and "Messiah would profit them nothing" if they were to become circumcised because of Jewish pressures but then circumcise Timothy "because of the Jews?" Was Paul a hypocrite? Certainly not, but he would be if you went along with the common interpretation of Galatians. He was on one hand trying to tell the Gentiles of Galatia to not give into Jewish pressures, but then by most interpreters he gave into Jewish pressures himself in Acts 16:1-3. What is really going on here?
The truth is that Paul was not against circumcision. He was against the false doctrines found in the "good news of the circumcision" which were a perversion of the true "good news" that Yahweh desires to proclaim.
Timothy's father was a Greek. This means that Timothy would not be of Jewish heritage because in scripture a person's lineage follows the fatherly line. Today, Orthodox Jews believe it follows the mother's lineage but it is not certain if this was the practice in the first century. But even as the son of a Gentile, Timothy was raised in the scriptures by his Jewish mother Eunice (2Tim. 1:5, 3:15), was "well reported of by the brethren" according to Acts 16:2, and was ready in his heart to be circumcised.
Now there is no record of Paul ever circumcising anyone other than Timothy. But we see that in Acts 16:3, Paul decided to take it upon himself to circumcise Timothy. Why did Paul want to do the actual act of circumcision here? To prove to the Jews that he was not in any way against circumcising the son of a Gentile if it was done for reasons that would not pervert the good news of Yahushua. He did this right after going to the apostles and elders about the circumcision question in Acts 15. Paul's decision to make sure he was the one to circumcise Timothy would alleviate any concerns that Paul's trip to Jerusalem had any intentions of doing away with circumcision as a whole, even for the son of a Gentile--as it says "for they all knew his father was a Greek."
Let's read the verses in Galatians again:
Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, the Messiah will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Messiah, you who [attempt] [to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
The issue here was our source of "righteousness." Those who held to the 'good news of the circumcision' believed that person had to learn/ obey the Torah and be circumcised before they could be considered righteous, and thus be saved. But the true good news is that one need only repent and believe in Yahushua to be considered righteous, and thus be saved. The former was an attempt to be "justified (declared righteous) by the law." The latter was the humble admission that our own righteousness is inadequate to gain any hope of receiving salvation through it. As a reminder, let's look at our diagram again:
:::::Good News of 'the Circumcision':::::::
Repent and accept Yahushua
THEN
Learn all of the Torah and obey it
THEN
Get circumcised
THEN
YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS
Vain attempt to be "justified by the law"
Still "Under the law"
:::The True Good News::::
Repent and accept Yahushua (Acts 2:38)
THEN
YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND ARE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS
"Justification by faith" in Yahushua
Humbly "Under grace"
If a man was to try to be "justified by the law" by submitting to the 'good news of the circumcision' and getting circumcised, they would be a "debtor to keep the whole law." Why? Because in order for us to be justified (declared righteous) by the law, we would need to keep every single commandment in order to be considered righteous. For whether we fail in one point, or a thousand points, we are still labeled a transgressor. For this reason, any attempt to be justified by the law will utterly fail. This is why the law has no part in justifying us. We need Yahushua for our righteousness/justification. That's why it says that we "wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in the Messiah Yahushua neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
So again Paul makes the point that if we are in the Messiah Yahushua, whether we are circumcised or uncircumcised it doesn't amount to anything in regards to whether or not we have righteousness. If we come to Yahushua, we are saved regardless of whether we are circumcised or not. Let's examine those verses once more before moving on:
Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, the Messiah will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Messiah, you who [attempt] [to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in the Messiah Yahushua neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Again, keep in mind that Paul himself circumcised Timothy. Therefore when it says "the Messiah will profit you nothing" and "every man who becomes circumcised...is a debtor to keep the whole law" and "you have become estranged from Messiah," it does not mean everyone in the entire world who becomes circumcised is condemned.
Paul is writing to the Galatians. Before we think his statements apply to everyone in the entire world, we need to examine the context, examine other scriptures, and examine Paul's own practices to get a full understanding of what was intended. Otherwise we have Paul sending Timothy to the lake of fire by circumcising him "because of the Jews."
Paul is addressing the false 'good news of the circumcision,' so for someone to be circumcised by them was a sign of submission to that false doctrine, a doctrine so dangerous it could cause a man to lose his salvation. Paul himself did circumcise the son of a Gentile to prove he wasn't against circumcision, but he vigorously refuted anyone who taught this 'good news of the circumcision' which was always was a false doctrine.
The truth is that if we are in the Messiah Yahushua, whether we are circumcised or uncircumcised doesn't gain us salvation. To the contrary, if we use it (or any other commanded act) as attempt to replace the work of Messiah, we are putting ourselves under the law and separating ourselves from Yahushua.
We are sons of Abraham through Yahushua the Messiah, not circumcision. In this sense it avails us nothing. But circumcision for the right reasons does fulfill a purpose. Otherwise Timothy endured a very painful ordeal for nothing. He wasn't getting circumcised because he wanted to witness to the Jews, as some say. Timothy was going to be circumcised anyway. Paul was choosing to be the one who actually did the act of circumcising Timothy 'because of the Jews'. He was proving to them that he was not against circumcision if done for the right reasons. What are the right reasons? No, it is not so that you can impress the Jews! He was clearly dead against that!
In the Torah, circumcision was never the first item on Yahweh's list of things He desired. Yahweh didn't give Abraham the covenant of circumcision on the day that he called him. He gave the covenant of circumcision to Abraham after Abraham had walked with Him many years.
This was also how Yahweh dealt with this issue with the children of Israel. The children of Israel were in the wilderness for 40 years and were not circumcising their children but Yahweh said nothing about it until just before they entered the promised land:
Joshua 5:2-7 At that time Yahweh said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. 3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins. 4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt. 5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised. 6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of Yahweh: unto whom Yahweh sware that he would not shew them the land, which Yahweh sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey. 7 And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.
The trek of the children of Israel going through the wilderness is a picture of our own salvation. It wasn't until just before they entered the promised land that Yahweh said anything about it. Why? Yahweh had some major sin that needed to be dealt with first. Idolatry, fornication, and a lack of faith were the major issues that needed to be dealt with first.
The same is true of Gentiles who are turning to Yahweh. They need to focus on learning Yahweh's commandments and practicing them before they concern themselves with circumcision:
Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
For this reason Paul told the (very carnal) Corinthians who were turning to Yahweh:
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of Elohim.
The real focus for one being called was the need to keep Yahweh's commandments. This was in perfect line with the ruling in Acts 15. Gentiles needed to spend their time learning the Torah and this was the reason James made the ruling in Acts 15:
Acts 15:19-21 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to Elohim: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
The expectation that came out of this ruling was that the Gentiles would be learning the Torah when they attended the synagogues every Sabbath. This is why James limited the requirements for new believers to some 'necessary things' which demonstrated their allegiance to Yahweh. The 'pollutions of idols... fornication... things strangled, and .. blood' had to do with idolatrous temple practices.
Now Timothy was not circumcised as a child because his father was a Greek. But he was not raised to be an idol worshiper. His Jewish mother and grandmother raised him in the scriptures:
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Messiah Yahushua.
Because of this, Timothy, who was 'well reported of by the brethren,' was quite ready as an adult to go ahead and get circumcised. Paul's decision to be the one who circumcise him in Acts 16:1-3 was proof that Paul still preached circumcision if done for the right reasons. He did this to prove to the Jews that he was not against circumcision--even if the person is an adult and the son of a Gentile.
As we know, the actual commanded time of circumcision was on the 8th day. For an adult to go through this process is extremely painful. It wasn't the first item on Yahweh's agenda in the Torah and it wasn't in the first century assembly either, per the ruling in Acts 15 and other verses.
Galatians 5:7-11 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Further evidence that Paul was not against circumcision is Paul's statement "if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution?" Because Paul still preaches circumcision, and proved that he wasn't against it in Acts 16:1-3, there should be nothing offensive about Yahushua's death on the tree being sufficient to bring salvation. But because some in Judah did not see righteousness by faith, they do stumble:
Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
So the Gentiles were receiving righteousness by faith in Yahushua while many of the Jews were not because they were setting aside the work of Yahushua and trying to gain righteousness by their own works of law keeping. Thus, Yahushua became a stumbling stone and rock of offense to them rather than the only begotten Son of Yahweh who was able to make them righteous.
If Paul did not preach circumcision, there would be a legitimate reason for them to stumble because circumcision is clearly something Yahweh commanded (Genesis 17:12, Lev 12:2-3, Exodus 12:48). But Paul points out: the fact that he did preach circumcision should cause the 'offense of the cross/stake' to 'cease.' The only reason it does not is because some are not seeking righteousness by faith in Yahushua, but by their own works. For this reason, the children of the bondwoman persecute the children of the freewoman--as we read earlier.
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
But everyone, Jew or Gentile, is able to receive the rebirth of the Spirit if they are willing to let the Adam man die and let Yahushua live in them by the power and wisdom of Elohim:
1 Corinthians 1:22-24 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Messiah crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Messiah the power of Elohim, and the wisdom of Elohim.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Messiah: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Messiah liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of Elohim, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Let's continue in Galatians 5:
Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Some have understood this to mean that Paul was hoping that the ones who troubled the Galatians would emasculate themselves. I don't believe that this is necessarily true because being 'cut off' can also be in reference to someone who is cut off from the community of believers. Being cut off from the fellowship of believers is certainly the context of his statement:
Galatians 5:7-10 I have confidence in you through the Master, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 10 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
So Paul's confidence was that they would judge the who were troubling them by cutting them off from fellowship. They needed to be judged because they were perverting the true good news of Yahushua and turning people toward their own 'good news of the circumcision,' a doctrine that was never true at any time in history. New believers in Yahushua have the grace and liberty to learn and apply Yahweh's commandments as His Spirit leads, without having a spiritual gun pointed to their head if they don't immediately whip into shape. But Paul does warn the Galatians that liberty is not to be used as an excuse to walk in sin:
Galatians 5:13-26 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Indeed it is true that all of Yahweh's law is fulfilled when we love our neighbor as ourselves. Knowing this, we should forsake the idea that we don't keep a certain commandment because "Yahushua fulfilled all that." The truth is that Yahushua fulfilled every commandment in the Torah and if He is dwelling in us then we will fulfill them as well! This is what it truly means to "walk in the Spirit."
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And again:
Romans 8:5-10 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against Elohim: for it is not subject to the law of Elohim, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please Elohim. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Elohim dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his. 10 And if Messiah be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
So the carnal minded man is at enmity against Elohim because it is not subjecting itself to the Torah, which teaches us to love Yahweh and love one another. Our liberation in Messiah is never to be used as an excuse to continue transgressing the Torah/law of Yahweh, as is commonly taught today. It is because we have transgressed the Torah/law of Yahweh that Yahushua had to come and die for us in the first place!
Paul now goes on to explain the way one walks in the Spirit:
Galatians 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Notice it says that we will not be under the law if we are led of the Spirit. There are two ways that we can find ourselves 'under the law'. One is by refusing to acknowledge that our righteousness and our salvation comes from Yahushua alone. The other is by refusing to be led by His Spirit which causes us to walk in His statutes, keep His judgments and do them! So Paul warns the Galatians:
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of Elohim.
How is that for a warning! We must walk in the Spirit and never use our liberty as an occasion or excuse to disobey Yahweh.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Messiah's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
So Yahweh's plan was to promise all of us eternal life through Abraham's Seed, Yahushua. First by showing us the path of righteousness which is in His law. And Yahweh, being ever so merciful, gave His only Son to redeem us from the curses that result in our disobedience to Him. The standard of righteousness DOES NOT CHANGE when we accept Yahushua, but our standing before Yahweh does!
It is a total distortion to teach that everyone else in the world is expected to refrain from sin (transgression of the law) and will be condemned for their failure to keep it but those who receive Yahushua are free to purposely transgress the law all day long! This is not Yahweh's 'Good news' and Paul was making that very clear! We need to walk in the Spirit! If we walk in the Spirit, we will be 'subject to the law of Yahweh.'
But we will not misuse the law of Yahweh to make it fulfill a function that it is never able to fulfill: Bring us righteousness and salvation. It is this misuse of the Torah that Paul is addressing in Galatians. Let's not misuse his writings to say something that he never meant to say.
Those who do so are in a lot of trouble:
2 Peter 3:13-17 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Master is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
So let's be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless. Let's not be among the unlearned and unstable who twist his letters to their own destruction. In the end, Yahushua will not be saying "Depart from me, ye commandment keepers!" Rather, as Paul said, those who walk in the flesh (the former ways of sin) will not inherit the kingdom of Yahweh.
Therefore, let's walk in the Spirit...being found by Him without spot and blameless. Not because of our own righteousness, but because of His indwelling. If He dwells in us, then He will cleanse us of the former things and give us the power to walk as He walked, live and He lived, and be where He is! This is the good news!
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his Elohim, and he shall be my son.
Let it be so that we are among the inheritors, ever faithful to trust in His righteousness for our salvation, ever seeking to walk in His Spirit, ever cleaving to the one who is the same yesterday, today and forever. The eternal principles of love as given in the Torah have not changed and they never will. Let's seek to walk in those eternal principles...that we might likewise remain...that His word (Yahushua) would abide in us forever.
May Yahweh bless you and may He have mercy on us all!
Sorry, corrections Romans chapter 3 leads us into understanding better Roamsn chapter 4 which is the chapter about Abraham and circumcision and his faith unto righteousness.
The article posted is saying the same that circumcison IS NOT AN ORDER OF GOD'S LAW NOW THAT JESUS CHIRST HAS PAID THE PRICE, thorugh His redemptive blood. Righteousness is accoutned to us by and thorugh faith in Jesus Christ, and not the keeping of the law of circumcision of the flesh, but the spiritual circumcision of the hearts of man toward Jesus Christ.:applause::glow:
If the Rorah teaches that you must have fiath then be circumsied this teaching is of the law, and is not of grace that God has grnated thorugh Christ. It is not the true gospel of Jesus Christ, but of Moses that God gave out BEFORE He sent Jesus to die on the cross. It is not a requirement of , or to receive of the promised covenant . The requirement to receive and of the NEW COVENANT is faith is Jesus Christ., not circumcision.
Hwo or what would a person have faith before being circumcised, if not in Christ?. Abraham was accounted as righteous before God because of His faith to believe in God's promise to him, and circumsied 24 years AFTER he he was justified by God as righteous. Abraham circumsied himself as a sign and a testimony that he had placed on God's promise to him, he was not justified becasue he had faith or was circumsied, but was circumcised because he was justified by God as righteous. Faith and belief in Christ fulfills the law of circumcision. And being filled with the the Holy Spirit is the sign and sealer of this faith as a the sign.
OK...my Brain is dead...way to many words...What do you mean I'm wrong ? I'm never wrong !!!...:goofball:...
I agree with what Rapio shared cuz Faith does come first and without Works Faith is dead...
I understand the Rebuke was dirrected towards the Judasisers...Im not in disagreement with that...I am in disagreement with Judaeo Messianic Christians shareing there Studies and Views and being shot down for it...After all they actually study the Torah and Accept Christ as LORD...most Christians Study a English Bible...there is a vast diffeance of interpetion...Anywho...As for the Circumsision part...Ouchy...:winksmile:....Im going to my room now...:zzzz:...xo
:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:...oh, my Lawd, grll you make me laugh.:ROFL: Jude you are just toooo funnneee! I can't stop ... ouchy???:ROFL:
you knew I was goin to tell you to go to your room didn't ya:ROFL::ROFL: Jude where on where do you get all your crazzeee stuff from? you are just too much!!!!:ROFL:
the wagon will be by in just a few short minutes, :nicenurse:Ima calling them now, so stay on the front pooorch:ROFL:
Ok ima out of my room now...Ima not going on the wagon unless MrRow comes along to hold my hand...:glow:...Ima scarded of nurses...:nicenurse:...they look nice but they have a habit of...never mind...Hey I do like the ponies that pull the wagon...:bouncy:...xo
hello ET i just thought i would share something with you so you don't make the mistake of saying that YAHWAH never commanded Abraham to be circumcised :
Bereshit (Genesis) 17:10-11
"This is MY Covenant which you guard between ME and you,and your seed after you,Every male child among you is to be circumcised."
11 "And you shall circumcise the flesh of your(the site censored this next word) fo----in,and it shall become a sign of the covenant between ME and you."
now you can read on if you like and it tells how on the eight day the male is to be circumcised and any foreigner who is not of your seed and so on
So my dear sweet sister YAHWAH did tell Abraham to circumcise,, this covenant is actually a continuation of the covenant of pieces,,where YAHWAH did the passing through while Abraham was in deep sleep which is where we are if we are Torahless (true translation meaning INSTRUCTIONS ) the law is in the Torah and without it we know not what is lawlessness,,in order to know what works are good we have to read the laws,,these are the same laws YAHSHUA taught,,HE just clarified them for those who were placing the yoke of the law on people and but not keeping it themselves,,when asked what the greatest commandment was YAHSHUA replied Matithyahu 22:37-40 "You shall love YAHWAH your ELOHIM with all your heart, and with all your being,and with all your mind."
38 "This is the first and great command."
39 "And the second is like it,"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
40 "ON THESE TWO COMMANDS HANG ALL THE TORAH AND THE PROPHETS." we need YAHSHUA,,without HIM we are nothing ,,HE said "with men this is impossible,but with ELOHIM all is possible",,one thing that many seem to over look is that YAHSHUA was glorifying the FATHER HIS whole life,,in everything HE did and that's what HE means by with all you heart,and your being and your mind,,we must let the Spirit tell the flesh how to live and not the flesh telling the Spirit,,how do we know what is good for the flesh except through ELOHIM,,YAHSHUA loves HIS FATHER and HIS Torah and so many miss so much by not seeing how he fulfilled the Torah and the Prophets and the Feast of YAHWAH,,my sweet sister i pray you take a minute to think about this
so listen don't take this as that i am saying you do not know your Scripture but you just said that YAHWAH did not command Abraham to circumcise and HE plainly did so a loving suggestion to my dear dear sister is to stop and think for moment that you do not know or understand the Hebrew roots of the Scripture which you say you know,,and therefore miss tons,,i too do not know everything there is to know about my FATHERS WORD but i am looking to HIS people and the WORDS that were given them and the Set Apart Times to find out what is the way HE wants us to live and that is my only prayer for these post,,i don't think that it is really the prayer of many who post here to help or to teach or to keep our brothers and sisters from stumbling,,i think that most of time i have seen that people misunderstand each other,,i think that most of the time people are only out to win an argument that will make them seem like the most knowing of all ,,as YAHSHUA said they make their Tzitzit longer and their T"fillen wide
we need it all,,without YAHSHUA we have nothing but to say we don't need HIS FATHER and the things HE put in place is not right we need them both and you can not have one without the other,,YAHSHUA said "Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete . For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done." all is not done yet nor is the Torah
it is my intention for you stop and think about this post and maybe think of looking into the places the Scripture came from instead of thinking that a doctrine in a western church is right about it all,,i pray that YAHWAH keeps you and that HIS peace is upon you all of your days,,may HIS face look upon you all of your life
Everything in the Old Covenant that was a symbol of something to come was done away with. The sacrifices and feasts were prophetic and pointed to Jesus. The temple building and services were all symbolic, down to the incense(prayer). They were an expression of faith, and a shadow of things to come. All the real things came at the death of Jesus, and all the shadows were dispelled. All those ordinances about food, and sacrifices, and circumcision, and feasts, and cleanliness, etc...they all pointed ahead to "the real thing". The "inward" stuff, and everything that was "an example" is gone now. We have the real thing, why look to former things?
:peace::peace:
P.S. When Paul, or Peter, or whoever talks about the things that have passed away, they always talks about food and circumcision, etc...when he talks about "do not commit adultery", he tells us not to commit adultery. There is a law that is still around. I believe there is anyway. 10 of 'em.
I appreciate what you are saying, but I ask you this question Was Genesis chapter 17, a commandment for circumcision BEFORE Abraham or AFTER Abraham had circumsied himself?
Abraham established the principles for the law of tithes and circumcision BEFORE God made it a law and gave it to Moses. GOD NEVER COMMANDED ABRAHAM TO CIRCUMSIED HIMSELF. Was Mosaic Law BEFORE Abraham or AFTER Abraham? Scripture tells us Abraham WAS BEFORE GOD GAVE THE LAW TO MOSES.
No where in Scripture can you find wherein God commanded Abraham to circumsie himself. Abraham did all these things on his own as being the least he could do toward his respect and honoring God regarding the covenant promise. God NEVER commanded Ahraham to tithe or circumsied himself. And because Abraham found it in his own heart to show this as a sign of honoring God and keeping of the covenant promise God had made toward him, Abraham circumsied himelf with an offering of his blood through circumscision. Circumcision was not a permanant thing becuase God knew it could not save anyone from their sins., and people would soon take such act lightly, so this is why God sent Jesus as the blood offering, and now REQUIRES that we circumsise our hearts spiritually by receiving Jesus Christ, as He speak in Jereimiah, pull back the forskin of our hearts... meaning stop being stiffnecked and hardheaded toward God.
Circumcision is a act of works, and in the old testament, works was a part of cleaning ones self to make things right before God. But Jesus did the work for us on the croos through His death, and we are not required to do works any longer to make things right with God.
Good points Mark? Circumcision was a sign of the type to come who would shed His blood on the cross for our sins to bring us into a right standing with God. As Paul says God accounted Abraham righteous because of his faith, not because he circumsied himself. And this was done 25 years BEFORE Abraham had circumsised himself.
Ice, this is scripture, did you take the time to read what I posted on page 2? Plus, you can read what Paul wrote in Romans chapter 4.
Circumsied or uncircumsed what is the spiritual purpose? Jesus coming to earth and His death on fulfilled the laws God gave to Moses. But the laws of God are still holy, but we are not longer required to follow the triuals of the laws given to Moses.
"they all pointed ahead to "the real thing". The "inward" stuff, and everything that was "an example" is gone now. We have the real thing, why look to former things?"
It's supposed to be "they all pointed to ahead to the real thing, the "inward stuff". Everything that was "an example" is gone now".
... ouchy???:ROFL: