Thread: New Covenant Priesthood of Believers vs The Organized Church
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New Covenant Priesthood of Believers vs The Organized Church
Posted : 9 Jul, 2010 10:18 AM
Hello everyone:
John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free,ye are free indeed.
I have been bothered for a number of years with the term 'The Church'.
I have heard people say "I am going to Church" or will you go to church with me; as though the Church were either
a place of interest, or a local event that happens on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights.
I was asked one Sunday by someone that I know,was 'I going to church';My answer knid of shocked him.
I responded that,I could not be going to somewhere,that I happen to be.
I told this person,that I am the Church.
The Church is not a building,but the individual people who the Lord Yeshua has saved, and called out from amongst the
world,to be His New Covenant people.
As i continued on my way,I went to fellowship,knowing that instead of being an active particpant,that I would instead be
a 'FAN'.
Just like the people that go to the ballpark, people pay to get into the stadium,they buy souvenirs,food,use the facilities,yet never once do they actively participate with the team they love to support.
Most of the Organized Church in America is the same as the people at the ballpark.
They show up,pay theirs dues(Tithe)have coffe,maybe some food,cheer(So called worship),use the facilities and
talk with a few people,then maybe go have lunch,or just go back home.
Actually,there are more people that could tell you the stats of their favorite teams,tv shows,(Doperah or Dr.Pill)
than they could tell you about Yeshua and His Word.
At the 'church' a man calling himself the senior pastor will get things going,saying lets pray,yet he is the only one
having the chance to pray.
I thought Yeshuas house,was to be 'A house of Prayer for all the Nations/people not just one,or is the High Priest
position still active these days.
This man says lets worship,yet the people are just singing songs which a band leader,or chior leader,
or the senior pastor picks out for the people to recite.
The people are then asked to Tithe or give an offering (I see this as club dues to keep the organization rolling).
Sometimes they have crackers and juice called communion;Again the senior pastor talks about the event,prays,asks people to hand out the elements and the people have a snack.
The senior pastor then lectures for about an hour,then the band has the people sing a song:
The senior pastors prays for everyone,then everyone disbands and goes their way until the next week,when they do this all over again..
Is this what Yeshua laid His life down for!
Is this the New Covenant Priesthood of believers in action..
Is this a Biblical Organism,or just some Organization of man...
The Lord says in His Word,what is the purpose of the gathering of the saints,Along with the purpose and function of the Priesthood of beleivers...1st Corinthians 14: 23-33
1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole assembly may come together, to the same place, and all may speak with tongues, and there may come in unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Co 14:24 and if all may prophecy, and any one may come in, an unbeliever or unlearned, he is convicted by all, he is discerned by all,
1Co 14:25 and so the secrets of his heart become manifest, and so having fallen upon his face, he will bow before God, declaring that God really is among you.
1Co 14:26 What then is it, brethren? whenever ye may come together, each of you hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation? let all things be for building up;
1Co 14:27 if an unknown tongue any one do speak, by two, or at the most, by three, and in turn, and let one interpret;
1Co 14:28 and if there may be no interpreter, let him be silent in an assembly, and to himself let him speak, and to God.
1Co 14:29 And prophets--let two or three speak, and let the others discern,
1Co 14:30 and if to another sitting anything may be revealed, let the first be silent;
1Co 14:31 for ye are able, one by one, all to prophesy, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted,
1Co 14:32 and the spiritual gift of prophets to prophets are subject,
1Co 14:33 for God is not a God of tumult, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.
1Co 14:36 From you did the word of God come forth? or to you alone did it come?
1Co 14:37 if any one doth think to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge the things that I write to you--that of the Lord they are commands;
1Co 14:38 and if any one is ignorant--let him be ignorant;
1Co 14:39 so that, brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and to speak with tongues do not forbid;
1Co 14:40 let all things be done decently and in order.
I purposelly left off verses 34-35 (Tough words for some to handle).
When we assemble together are we assembling according to the New Covenant Priesthood of Believers;
Or are we assembling according to the Old Covenant; THE LAW.
Under the Old Covenant,one person prayed and offered the peoples sacrifices,this was the high priest:
Today they call themselves Senior Pastors.
Under the Law,the Levites would lead the people into worshiping the Lord:
Today they call this the worship band/team or the choir.
Under the law the people tithed (read Deuteronmy 14:22-29 especially vs 28-29 concerning the three year tithe).
Today the people are still asked to be tithing.
Is the church in America a New Covenant Church under Grace,practicing participatory worship,
Participatory breaking bread,and cheerful giving, all of this according to 1st Corinthians chapters 11-14 .
Or has the church in America never come out from being under the Law.
There are few that do practise these New Covenant principles when they meet.
I had this New Covenant Priesthood of Believers fellowship when I lived in Pennsylvania;
I have lived in New Jersey the past 12 years,when I fellowship with the Saints,my heart sinks,for I know what theyare missing,
yet most have never heard of the Priesthood of Believers,Nor have they seen this in action..
I am putting my concerns for this nation, especially those calling themselves 'The Church' onto this site,pray about this.
I so much want to see the people understanding who Yeshua is,what He is like;
I Also want the people to be knowing who they are in Yeshua,also what the Lord does say about us as His people.
Are we dumb sheep,sinners saved by Grace as these senior pastors and church members say and believe;
Or are we the Saints of the Most High God,The Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
What does the Lord say about these matters.
I hope that everyone has a Blessed and safe weekend
New Covenant Priesthood of Believers vs The Organized Church
Posted : 10 Jul, 2010 06:14 PM
When 1st Corinthians 14 is read within the context,we find the Holy Spirit empowering/using
The apostle Paul; to write about certain gifts being used within the confines of the body,namely prophesy,tongues and interpretation,when they meet together.
The gifts are to be desired ,especially Prophesy;Prophesy here is not "Thus Sayeth the Lord " and give future predictions;rather Prophesy here is to be speaking forth the Word of God
unto the Edifying of the body,when gathered together.
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
The Greek word for tongue(s) here is the word; Glossa #1100 Strongs Greek.
This tongue or better yet;language, which is a real language spoken by people;was never taught to the person that is speaking;Yet in the audience of people there might be a person who does speak that language. Acts 2:4-11 and
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
I am not putting great emphasis on the gift,but rather the emphasis through these gifts,is to Glorify the Lord.
I believe these two gifts,tongues and Prophesy were singled out by the Holy Spirit,because of the misuse and
misunderstanding the gifts.
Pride might have been rampant,as much as today when people say "I AM IN THE MINISTRY".
I believe brokenness is a deterent to pride.
I believe;Because of grieving the Holy Spirit,with continual unbelief and pride,thinking we can Worship Yeshua in our own ways,this might be why we are not seeing the Holy Spirit manifest His life and presence as in the earlier days.
Jesus could not do many miracles for the unbelief of the people.
Also lets remember that the gift of tongues is the least of the gifts ( 1st Cor.12:28)
To exalt one gift above another is not good,neither is denying the gifts,or even just one gift of any good.
Lets have the Lord give to us what is needed for life and Godliness,and if this includes gifts;
Then lets recieve these gladly also.
Agape' and Charis:
George
ps:Baptizing-actually instuction and teaching the people the Names of the Father,the Son and The Holy Spirit,this only appears in Matthew 28:19,I guess we should not does this.
Breaking Bread/Lords Supper does not appear after 1 st Corinthians 11: 24-26
I guess we should not do this.
Prophesy should not happen, seeing this is last mentioned as a word in
1 st Corinthians 14:39
When 1st Corinthians 14 is read within the context,we find the Holy Spirit empowering/using
The apostle Paul; to write about certain gifts being used within the confines of the body,namely prophesy,tongues and interpretation,when they meet together.
The gifts are to be desired ,especially Prophesy;Prophesy here is not "Thus Sayeth the Lord " and give future predictions;rather Prophesy here is to be speaking forth the Word of God
unto the Edifying of the body,when gathered together.
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
The Greek word for tongue(s) here is the word; Glossa #1100 Strongs Greek.
This tongue or better yet;language, which is a real language spoken by people;was never taught to the person that is speaking;Yet in the audience of people there might be a person who does speak that language. Acts 2:4-11 and
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
I am not putting great emphasis on the gift,but rather the emphasis through these gifts,is to Glorify the Lord.
I believe these two gifts,tongues and Prophesy were singled out by the Holy Spirit,because of the misuse and
misunderstanding the gifts.
Pride might have been rampant,as much as today when people say "I AM IN THE MINISTRY".
I believe brokenness is a deterent to pride.
I believe;Because of grieving the Holy Spirit,with continual unbelief and pride,thinking we can Worship Yeshua in our own ways,this might be why we are not seeing the Holy Spirit manifest His life and presence as in the earlier days.
Jesus could not do many miracles for the unbelief of the people.
Also lets remember that the gift of tongues is the least of the gifts ( 1st Cor.12:28)
To exalt one gift above another is not good,neither is denying the gifts,or even just one gift of any good.
Lets have the Lord give to us what is needed for life and Godliness,and if this includes gifts;
Then lets recieve these gladly also.
Agape' and Charis:
George
ps:Baptizing-actually instuction and teaching the people the Names of the Father,the Son and The Holy Spirit,this only appears in Matthew 28:19,I guess we should not does this.
Breaking Bread/Lords Supper does not appear after 1 st Corinthians 11: 24-26
I guess we should not do this.
Prophesy should not happen, seeing this is last mentioned as a word in
1 st Corinthians 14:39
@ Gary Lane:
When 1st Corinthians 14 is read within the context,we find the Holy Spirit empowering/using
The apostle Paul; to write about certain gifts being used within the confines of the body,namely prophesy,tongues and interpretation,when they meet together.
The gifts are to be desired ,especially Prophesy;Prophesy here is not "Thus Sayeth the Lord " and give future predictions;rather Prophesy here is to be speaking forth the Word of God unto the Edifying of the body,
when gathered together.
1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
The Greek word for tongue(s) here is the word; Glossa #1100 Strongs Greek.
This tongue or better yet;language, which is a real language spoken by people;was never taught to the person that is speaking;Yet in the audience of people there might be a person who does speak that language. Acts 2:4-11 and
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
I am not putting great emphasis on the gift,but rather the emphasis through these gifts,is to Glorify the Lord.
I believe these two gifts,tongues and Prophesy were singled out by the Holy Spirit,because of the misuse and
misunderstanding the gifts.
Pride might have been rampant,as much as today when people say "I AM IN THE MINISTRY".
I believe brokenness is a deterent to pride.
I believe;Because of grieving the Holy Spirit,with continual unbelief and pride,thinking we can Worship Yeshua in our own ways,this might be why we are not seeing the Holy Spirit manifest His life and presence as in the earlier days.
Jesus could not do many miracles for the unbelief of the people.
Also lets remember that the gift of tongues is the least of the gifts ( 1st Cor.12:28)
To exalt one gift above another is not good,neither is denying the gifts,or even just one gift of any good.
Lets have the Lord give to us what is needed for life and Godliness,and if this includes gifts;
Then lets recieve these gladly also.
Agape' and Charis:
George
Gary,I want to use your logic here:
ps:Baptizing-actually instuction and teaching the people the Names of the Father,the Son and The Holy Spirit,this only appears in Matthew 28:19,I guess we should not does this.
Breaking Bread/Lords Supper does not appear after 1 st Corinthians 11: 24-26
I guess we should not do this.
Prophesy should not happen, seeing this is last mentioned as a word in
New Covenant Priesthood of Believers vs The Organized Church
Posted : 11 Jul, 2010 10:59 AM
George, The thoughts from scripture you gave concerning spiritual gifts was very good far as it went, but I believe you failed to show us who the gifts were given to and why and in 1Cornithians you didn't give all of God's council on the subject of the gifts.
The gifts, were by an large physical, such as speaking in tongues, and healing. The only abstract or spiritual gifts mentioned is charity, and prophesy and mentioned first in verse one of 1 Corinthians 14.
1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
Right from the beginning, Paul urges believers to follow love and prophesying. I also I completely agree with you that prophesying as you described it as, "Prophesy here is to be speaking forth the Word of God", but for today in this church age, it's no longer a gift but rather the nature of the new man in Christ as Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 2:16.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
If the gifts were still in effect today Paul would not have instructed us in studying God's word and to compare scripture with scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15, 1 Corinthians 2:13. As a gift all of this would be given instantly as understanding just as tongues were given. No one had to study on how to give them, they just came to a person and an others interpreted. Bottom line a gift is something we don't have to strive for but is given as in gift.
Now you have given the scriptures in support of why tongues are for today but you failed to give the overall picture of tongues ceasing and that tongues were not for believers but for unbelievers. That is why Paul stressed love and prophesying so one could understand why the gifts were given, not to mention the rest of God's word.
Here is a list of the scriptures you may or may not have included in chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Seems like the conscious in chapter 14, that it is far better to prophesy than it to speak in tongues. The bottom line is; all the gifts of the spirit will cease, just as Paul stated even though he spoke in tongues more so than anyone else did.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Love can never fail because God is love. Prophecies shall fail and tongues will cease. Today Knowledge of God is fast vanishing away already.
The verbs used to describe prophecies; about them failing and tongues ceasing is most interesting. Why failing and ceasing are used, is most interesting.
Prophesying is one of the gifts that has failed slowly because God replaced that with His written word and that is why we need to study so as to fill our new man with the mind of Christ by rightly dividing the word. Tongues and other physical signs such as dramatic healings, drinking deadly things, picking up serpents and not being effects, the spirit coming as a mighty rushing wind, and tongues of fire were all physical signs for unbelieving Israel.
One of the key verses to prove this is found in 1Corinthians 14: 21-22
1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
When the Holy Spirit was first given, it was given only to Jewish believers in the upper room. Gentiles were not included until a little later in Acts 10.
Proof from God's word why signs were given to only Israel;
1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
In verse 21 its says: With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people;
This prophesied about Israel over in Isaiah.
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
If one reads, the whole chapter of Isaiah they will discover Isaiah was only referring to Zion, {Israel} and not to the church. The Church was still a hidden mystery that not once was the church mentioned until Christ mentioned it to Peter but did not elaborate on it that we have a record of.
Therefore we can conclude that the gifts were given to Israel and only briefly to the church. God gave Israel about thirty years of Grace to repent for rejecting their Messiah and the physical gifts were still instated during that time, but not mentioned again because they had ceased.
God had always dealt for many centuries with Israel with physical blessings and curses. He carried those physical signs to prove to unbelieving Israel things had changed and with Paul's letters we find many other changes accrued, such a Israel being set aside both Jew and Gentile were now a new creation in Christ and that in this dispensation of grace, there are no fleshly ordinances because they have been abolished, every one of them. There is no way we can mix grace and works and be pleasing to God or how can we worship in spirit if we do so with physical acts such as water baptism, tithing, communion, holy days?
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Today in the church, after Israel was set aside, {read chapter 11 of Romans} and see that Israel as a nation was set aside and the physical gifts with it. Today both Jew and Gentile are a new creation in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
In this present dispensation, the time of the gentiles {the church} we worship God only in spirit and in truth and not having any confidence in our flesh as you would have to do to speak in tongues or get dunked under water.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
By the way, the circumcision that worships God in spirit, were also baptized by God in the spirit and not in water.
Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Today in this time of the Gentiles, Romans 11:25, we have the fruits of the spirit, all spiritual applications, none of which are of a physical nature.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:25 is most revealing and also back up what I have stated about things done in the flesh are not for today such as tongues, healing, or fleshly ordinances such as water baptism, tithing etc.
Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. I believe that verses coupled with Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
In addition, we can top that off with John 4:24 that states: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
These truths would be in complete harmony with the fruits of the spirit, not the gifts that have been done away with or have failed.
The good news is we have God's word now that they didn't have back then until Paul and others were given revelation concerning the church and the future.
God's word is most accurate in thought content even if some of the wording has been changed.
Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
George you stated: " Gary,I want to use your logic here:
ps:Baptizing-actually instuction and teaching the people the Names of the Father,the Son and The Holy Spirit,this only appears in Matthew 28:19,I guess we should not does this.
Breaking Bread/Lords Supper does not appear after 1 st Corinthians 11: 24-26"
George I don't think using logic is a very good idea because we would have to use our natural, carnal minds. This is what God says about that.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
That I believe is why the Lord has instructed us to study is word and by comparing scripture with scripture, we can rightly divide his word.
As to touching on fleshly ordinances that you mentioned, I won't get into that here as that is another subject for another time.
New Covenant Priesthood of Believers vs The Organized Church
Posted : 11 Jul, 2010 07:38 PM
Hello everyone:
@ Gary Lane:
Gary according to your understanding of the Word of God,the Gifts of the Holy Spirit
have ceased completely.
You believe this has happened as we have the whole canon of Scripture.
If this is true,when did you happen to be clothed with immortality.
When that which is perfect has come,Is this talking about the completion of the canon of Scripture.
Could this be talking about the Second coming of Christ.
Or could this be talking about the New Jerusalem coming down from God,out of Heaven.
If you have been clothed with immortality already,
Or if Yeshua/Jesus has returned and the New Jerusalem has arrived,then the rest of us poor slobs are in a whole lot of trouble.
As you had copied desire spiritual gifts,These gifts are from the Holy Spirit,yet He empowers believers,then uses the gifts through the believers to Minister to others through the gifts.
Since you believe the gifts have ceased, then there can be no teaching,exhortation,prophesy.
There cannot be any giving,helps, serving, ,or administration.
James says to ask for Wisdom,Nope,too bad; wisdom ended with the completion of Scripture.
Miracles, and revelation,I don't think so.
As far as using our minds with which to be thinking,we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
Nowhere in Scripture are we told not to be thinking,or meditating.
Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Gary,without the power and the gifts of the Holy Spirit,How are we as Believers able to be meeting together.
How do we serve and encourage one another,How do we Witness to one another and to the unbelievers.
Why do we even meet together,for according to your line of reasoning,I have no need for anyone,
I have the word of God,the complete word of God..
I will continue this when I return either Friday or Saturday.
I have to be out and away from the computer these next 4-5 days;I have Orientation and will not have access to a computer,Praise the Lord for small blessings.
I hope everyone had a Blessed weekend,I did I met with the Saints of God in Philadelphia/Philthadalphia,Pa.
New Covenant Priesthood of Believers vs The Organized Church
Posted : 11 Jul, 2010 09:21 PM
I am not going to knock anyone's beliefs, but I want to ask those that believe the gifts are still here on question. When was the last time you saw someone healed when a man's shadow fell on them, or from a man's handkerchief?
New Covenant Priesthood of Believers vs The Organized Church
Posted : 12 Jul, 2010 07:01 AM
klmartin62, A very good point well made. All rhetoric I have heard from healing fanatics is they share stories with you about someone being miraculously healed but its always someone they have never met or knew, there is never a first hand account.
In the first hand accounts of a healing, its always an ailment one cannot see, such as back injury, eye sight, headaches, etc but never is one healed from leprosy, a missing limb, or some real injury one can see with one's eyes.
If these faith healers who heal {?} in revival meetings, tents, etc, and if they were for real how come they don't empty the hospitals?
I remember reading what Paul told Timothy about healing.
1 Timothy 5:23 �Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
At one time Paul had these signs for preaching.
Mark 16:17 �And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 �They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Paul did all of this while they preached to every creature and once that commission was fulfilled these signs ceased along with the gifts or Paul would not have told Timothy to take wine for is often infirmities if healing was still being done.
By the way here is the scripture that proves this commission was completed.
Colossians 1:23 �If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Also I believe Paul said the gifts were for unbelievers.
1 Corinthians 14:22 �Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
In light of that scripture, it would seem to me, that when those who advocate for miraculous healings of the flesh that without realizing it they are showing forth their unbelief?
I should note that God can heal, but its not part of his program for this present dispensation to do miraculous healings, but rather He does healings in a much slower way and most often uses modern medicine to heal or with just rest.
I do believe the most astounding miracle done today is when God performs a spiritual operation on a repentant heart.
Colossians 2:11 �In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 �Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 �And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Being circumcised with the circumcision made without hands by the circumcision of Christ and Buried with him in baptism through faith and done by God and has quickened us together with him for the forgiveness of all our sins to me is the single largest important miracle God has ever done for he Himself had to take on the form or a man, suffer for us, and die for his and shed his blood and and be separated from the Father is by far the most momentous thing God has ever done. yet those who make a religion out of fleshly miricals are indeed
