Mark and John got a little long-winded/off-topic(Mark's fault) on a previous thread(see link). Mark started attacking John's religion, and John replied in defense.
-------John's Reply------
"I�ll tell you what�s going on.
The Catholic Church owns a lot of art, and a lot of property. And you seem to be implying that those possessions could be sold and used to better serve the poor. Thankfully, you don�t know what you�re talking about, otherwise, the poor would end up getting less help than they�re currently getting. How so?
With respect to the art, a few points are worth mentioning. First, the Vatican charges people to view tour its art galleries. That means the church � the largest charitable organization in the world � gets ongoing revenue from its art collection. Sell the art, lose a large source of yearly income that is going to help the poor. Second, the art collections are largely public. Sell the art, and a huge portion of it goes into private collections, never to be seen or enjoyed by the public again.
Let�s actually take your proposition seriously for a second. Let�s say the Vatican sells 10 billion dollars in art, with the intent of taking that money and using it to serve the poor. Immediately, the high demand for medical supplies and food causes the prices to go through the roof (supply and demand). The result is that the Catholic Church ends up being able to buy less with its one-time surge in revenue. True, the poor might see a modicum of relief in the short-term, but they are going to suffer more in the long-term, once things settle down and the Church no longer has revenue from its art galleries. Do you see how utterly stupid your proposal is? It�s beyond ludicrous.
Now, with respect to property, yes, the Church owns land. What�s on that land though? Churches! Why on earth would the Church sell it�s land? So it can cease existing? Where would the parishioners celebrate the liturgy?
I don�t mind having these kinds of discussions, but we should probably start a separate thread for them, as this is getting way off topic.
By the way, if you want to do a more public debate I�d be happy to discuss the errors of Adventism on another thread. Just let me know.
John."
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Ok...I don't think I need to argue the point about Catholics and money though. What did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to do? I can see the point about wisely managing money, and I can see the point about the art and things that bring in revenue. Contrary to your opinion, my argument is not quite that stupid. I would like to point out though, that 10 million in art is a lot less valuable than investing that 10 million elsewhere. I wasn't thinking about art or land when I made the point about the riches of the catholic church. Adventists own land and companies and publishing houses, there are things that are necessary or helpful to spread the gospel. I was pointing more toward the utensils and extravagance that goes toward the use/portrayal/construction of the various catholic "stuff". I'll admit that most of it was probably acquired before the current era, when Catholics weren't so nice. And I'll admit that every church organization has waste and unnecessary projects. Nothing in this world is perfect, and maybe it's the scale of the catholic denomination that looks so massive to us comparative "Jesus hicks"...but it just seems to me that they could find better things to do with their money.
So how do you want to do this? Move on to another topic or stick with this one? I guess we can moderate ourselves to a degree.
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 29 Jun, 2010 09:20 AM
Mark, I have evidence here that can not be ignored.
Soloman when he became king asked for wisdom from God.
God gave him that and much more.Soloman's riches were the things of fables.Everything was gold. The temple was all gold and silver.The King was filthy rich.
Should he have sold it and given it to the poor.
When the Romans burnt down the temple with fie some of the jewish items fell into the hands of the Catholic church.
When Pope Paul the II became Pope Israel asked that these items be returned to Israel.They were at no charge.
So, to say the Catholic Church was wealthy and needs to get rid of it is God's call not ours.
One issue my dear friend, Arch.You were wrong in a statement. There have been 2 churches before 1400.
The split occured before 1,000 AD. The Orthodox Church split from the Roman Catholic Church before 800 AD.
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 29 Jun, 2010 10:27 AM
Anyway...follow the example of Jesus. Solomon also had tons of women, and spent a lot of time in idolatry for awhile. He isn't our example. I just don't think God "wants" elaborate stuff. The temple was an object lesson, just like sacrifices. God said He took no pleasure in sacrifices, and the temple lost it's significance when Jesus fulfilled it's object lessons.
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 29 Jun, 2010 03:38 PM
I am saddened that anyone who would call themselves a Christian would even consider Roman Catholicism to be Christianity. But that is the level of knowledge of the Bible in the average person who call themselves a Christian. Since this conversation is about the doctrinal differences between a sect known as Seventh Day Adventism whose doctrines are so far from the Christian faith, that there is an actual debate in christendom as to whether they are even Christian or not, and Papism, then I will bow out of this conversation. Suffice it to say that If one wanted to mock God by making a false church that looked like it worshiped Him from a distance, but instead sinned against Him at every turn, I could think of no better false church than Roman Catholicism. I am quite sure that most of those who read this thread don't have any real knowledge of church history, so here is something you should consider. During the Reformation period and for a couple of hundred years after that, the consensus by protestants was that the Roman Catholic church was the Wh___e of Babylon mentioned in John's Revelation. There was wide agreement on this for hundreds of years. Now that Rome no longer murders Christians in large numbers, they presently don't fit all the qualifications they once did. But that being said, the Mass re-crucifies Christ every time it is performed, the bowing down to statues, the Mary worship, the mindless repeating of prayers, the armies of sexual perverts running the show, and denying justification by faith alone, all adds up to a MOUNTAIN of sin and wickedness that is comparable maybe only to Islam. So, with this I leave you with your vow to Ellen White and to your priests. As for me I already have my High Priest and I think you know His name. In Christ, James
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 29 Jun, 2010 05:57 PM
:rolleyes::waving:
We might have to do this privately, John. Maybe post it later. Shoulda' done that first, don't know what I was thinking.
And we're all Christians here James. There are a lot of Catholic Christians. I could be wrong, but I'll leave the salvation judgment in your court. However, I'm not sure how you came to Christ, but I am sure you were a sinner just like the rest of us. If God can save a sinner, then surely He can save an Adventist and a Catholic.
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 29 Jun, 2010 05:59 PM
James,
Them�s fightin� words. Let�s analyze your comments, shall we?
�I am saddened that anyone who would call themselves a Christian would even consider Roman Catholicism to be Christianity. But that is the level of knowledge of the Bible in the average person who call themselves a Christian.�
So anyone who read the Bible wouldn�t be Roman Catholic? That�s amazing. I was Protestant most of my life, read the Bible dozens of times, and converted to Catholicism. What�s the Catholic Church say about sacred scripture? �The Church �forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.�� (CCC 133).
�Suffice it to say that If one wanted to mock God by making a false church that looked like it worshiped Him from a distance, but instead sinned against Him at every turn, I could think of no better false church than Roman Catholicism.�
Ad hominem. It doesn�t matter whether Catholics are sinners. It has no bearing on the truth/falsity of the Church�s claims.
�I am quite sure that most of those who read this thread don't have any real knowledge of church history, so here is something you should consider.�
Are you �quite sure?� I have two Master�s degrees: one in philosophy, and the other in theology. I�m quite sure I have as much, if not more, knowledge of Church history than you do. I�ve taken graduate level courses in ecclesiology, and patrology. Have you?
�But that being said, the Mass re-crucifies Christ every time it is performed . . .�
Wrong. The bloodless sacrifice of the Mass is a re-presentation of Christ�s one sacrifice. It makes us present at a singular event which, from God�s eternal perspective, is atemporal. Catholics don�t re-crucify Jesus.
� . . . the bowing down to statues . . .�
Yes, out of respect for what the statues represent: Jesus, and our role-models in the faith who have followed his will.
� . . . the Mary worship . . .�
Wrong. Catholics don�t worship Mary. We reverence her as a role-model of submissiveness to God�s will, and because of the work of grace God wrought in her. Mary receives hyper-dulia (reverence). God receives latria (true adoration).
� . . . the mindless repeating of prayers . . . �
So you have a problem with Sacred Scripture then? Tell me, James, how many times does David repeat �his love endures forever� in Psalm 136? And how often do the saints in heaven shout �Holy! Holy! Holy! Is the Lord God Almighty! (Revelation 4:8)?
� . . . the armies of sexual perverts running the show . . .�
Wrong. A research study conducted by the John Jay College found that between 1950 and 2002, there were 109,600 allegations of sexual abuse against priests in the United States. Assuming every allegation were true, that would still only be 4% of the number of priests ordained during that period of time. Since when does 4% constitute an army?
Wrong. Justification comes by grace through faith. It�s a free gift. In fact, the only time the phrase �faith alone� occurs in scripture is James 4:24, where it says, and I quote, �See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.�
� . . . all adds up to a MOUNTAIN of sin and wickedness that is comparable maybe only to Islam.�
That mountain�s looking more like a mole hill to me. But I�ll tell you what, any time you want to formally debate me on Roman Catholicism, just say the word. You�ll lose, and I�ll make you look foolish in front of everyone on this forum.
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 29 Jun, 2010 11:53 PM
Sir James
You very nicely prove my point that there are some of my Brothers and Sisters in Christ that are misinformed and continue to spread that misinformation,
You statement that:
�During the Reformation period and for a couple of hundred years after that, the consensus by protestants was that the Roman Catholic church was the Wh___e of Babylon mentioned in John's Revelation.�
is odd considering that Luther whom started the Revolution still believed many of The Churches Doctrines � Body and Blood of Christ � Immaculate Conception...
Luther was correct in that The Church need reforming desperately and if he did not have such a hatred and running feud with the Pope at that time he may not have divorced himself from The Church.
For over 1500 years there was only one interpretation for �This is My Body...this is My Blood...� Only 60 years after The Revolution a book was published with the title '200 Interpretations of This is My Body...This is My Blood'. The number of new religions based on Scripture slowly grew � 3 more then 14...then 60...then 1,000...then by the end of the 18th Century 2,000. By the mid 19th Century 15,000. By the Mid 20th Century 20,000 and by the last census there were over 30,000 churches based on Scripture. 30,000! Each one with just a little bit of different beliefs or some that are Wayyy Out there.
Christ told Peter when He Established His Church here on earth that �...the Gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church...� (paraphrasing) and that His Church would be still here when He Returns. Christ does not lie! His Church is still here.
Please check your information before you disseminate it.
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 29 Jun, 2010 11:58 PM
Dennis,
The Church split because of "clerical issues" such as Celibacy and Literagy (Language) and Garments. It was and is still One Church -- with two Lungs -- East (Orthodox Greek) and West (Roman).
Both can still trace their Lineage back through The Apostle and to Christ through the Laying of Hands and Ordaining.
A debate on the dontrinal differences and conduct of Adventists/Catholics
Posted : 30 Jun, 2010 12:16 AM
The Mass is like stepping into a Time Machine and visiting an Event that Reverberates through Time. Christ's Sacrifice is Timeless and while not being Recreated every moment it still continues through Time itself. The Mass does not �Re-Sacrifices� Jesus but rather �Manifests� His Sacrifice. It is a Awesome thing to be a part of and I am moved every time I witness it.
I would venture that many of us carry photos of our Loved Ones in our wallets or purses. If we were to �kiss� a photo of a much Loved person...would we be guilty of Idol Worship? When we kneel and hold up our Bible and pray, are we worshiping The Bible. Statutes are symbols that allow us to focus our Love and Adoration. They are lifeless and hollow and are worth only what they represent to us.
As for worshiping Mary...yes, there are some Catholics that take it too far, but The Church forbids nothing more then Adoration and Veneration that she Deserves as the Epitome of Docile Obedience to GOD and as the Tabernacle that Housed Jesus and pumped her own blood through Christ Our Savior.
