Author Thread: Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 25 Jun, 2010 08:53 AM

Whilst there is more to Calvinism than five points, these are the major points on which Calvinism rests. They are called the T-U-L-I-P. Point 1, Total Depravity; Point 2, Unconditional Election; Point 3, Limited Attonement; Point 4, Irresistable Grace; and Point 5, Perseverence of the Saints.



Point 1, Total Depravity. Simply put, this doctrine says that all mankind, since the fall, has been totally depraved. That man, both individually and generally, is totally debased and corrupt, that he is unable to think or do anything good outside of God's Providence.



Now what is my problem with this? It's the word, "total." Certainly the Bible teaches the depravity of man, but I don't see the total aspect of it. You see the scripture is generalized when it speaks of the wickedness of man. For example, Genesis 6.5 says, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." That sounds kinda bad. But it is still a general statement regarding the moral condition of mankind. Obviously, it wasn't individual. Because in verse 8 we are told that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Was Noah totally depraved? Nowhere does the text indicate that. Of course the Calvinist would say that God gave grace to Noah. But that is unsupported by the text as well. The idea that Noah obeyed God suggests there was some good in him. Or maybe Noah wasn't included in God's assessment in verse 5. And, if Noah wasn't included in verse 5, then that shows the generallity of the statement. No matter how you try to explain it, Noah was different.



We can look at mankind today, with all the murders, the wars, the rapes, the threats from one government to another suggesting that annhilation is right around the corner, and conclude that man is depraved, eventhough there are some righteous people on the earth, of which can be said God found grace in His eyes.



I once knew an atheist, and he was till he died. Yet, this man was the one of the most giving man I ever knew. I use to visit his used bookstore, and one day I told him I was thirsty, and asked if I could have a glass of water. Without hesitation, he brought me a glass of water. I remember, one time someone was looking at a book, and it was marked $.50. They only had a quarter. He sold them that book for a quarter. He use to donate books to various charities when they had book drives, which they in turn sold with the proceeds going to that charity. Yet, by Calvinistic definition, he was totally depraved. Of course, they would probably say that eventhough he was totally depraved, he filled some purpose in God's Providence.



The problem I have with the Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is that it can neither be proved or disproved. Certainly, in general the scriptures do teach the depravity of man, but not individually. But then again, there is God's providence. I know there was a time I was financially in very bad shape. A man took pity on me and helped me. Later, he was charge with some kind of financial crime, whether embezzelment, or something like that. He had two businesses, and he stole money from one business to keep the other going. He didn't pay taxes, nor social security for any of his employees. He took the money off their checks, but somehow, it never got to the IRS. Later, of course, the IRS came after the employees for their money as we are responsible to pay our taxes, even though there is no law that says so.



Oh yes, I could go on and point out indications that man is depraved, but that even a depraved man can do something good.



Decide for yourself. Is man totally depraved? I personally don't think so.



Point 2, Unconditional Election. Several years ago, I did a study on the words elect, chose, chosen, as they pertain to this doctrine. What I found is that those words pertain to Christ, to the apostles, and to the church. Never to anyone individually, except Christ.



The fact is we are chosen in Christ, and we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4 states, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." This verse makes it plain, those whom are chosen are chosen in Him, in Christ. Outside of Christ, no one is chosen. Therefore, we must then understand how someone is chosen in Christ, and that is where the conditions come in. Salvation is the process by which we are chosen in Christ.



Condition #1, believing. John 3.16, a familiar passage to most. But let's go a bit further and include verses 17 and 18. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through might be saved. He that believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name in the only begotten Son of God." There can be no doubt that according to these verses, believing is very definitely a condition for salvation. And you cannot be elect without being saved, and being in Christ.



Condition #2, repentance. Luke 13.3 & 5 say the same thing. "I tell you no, but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Wel that's pretty well straight forward. No repentance, no salvation, you will perish.



Condition #3, confession. Romans 10:9 states. "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart brings salvation. That's simple enough.



Some folks add water baptism as a condition of salvation. One thing for certain, salvation is not unconditional. And since salvation is of itself a condition of election, it's safe to say election is not unconditional.





Point 3, Limited Attonement. This is my favorite. Why? Because, it's the easiest to refute. Let me tell you, the five points are like dominoes. When one falls, they all do.



Keep in mind, these five points of Calvinism are all connected to their doctrine of particular election, and their doctrine of particular redemption. Without these five points, those two doctrines are gone. It's like, you tell a big lie. Then you have to create a bunch of little lies to support the big lie. And in this point of limited atomement, the lie is exposed.



Limited atonement is just that. Before the foundation of the world God the Father predetermined to send Christ in to the world at just the right time to become a sacrifice for the sins of a select few, called the elect.



Now the truth. In John 12.32, Jesus said, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL to Myself." Notice the word "ALL." This is my own translation. In the KJV, they add the word men in italics. If you have read the preface of the KJV, you know that words in italics are added words to clarify the text. Take the word out, and you have what the original states. You have the same in the NKJV. Without the added words, you might ask all what. But with the added words, you don't need to. In answer to the question, "All what?" Without the extra word we simply have to look at the text. What was Jesus talking about? So let's look at the text. John 12. 30-32. "Jesus answered and said, 'This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all world to Myself.'" You can see, I added the word world in italics. In the the text, Jesus is talking about the judgement of the world (kosmos). Then he refers to the manner in which He would die. If you're going to add a word, it should be a word in keeping with the text. So the message of Jesus here is, "If I be crucified, I will draw all the world to Myself." That sure doesn't sound like limited atonement to me. I realize there are some Calvinistic Greek scholars that would disagree with this definition. But the Greek word, pantos does not support the idea of any kind of limitation. According to the Greek books that I have, the word means, wholly, entirety, every.



Then there is I John 2.2, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." Again, the Greek word, holos, translated "whole" shows absolutlely no limitation. I Timothy 4.3-6 teaches that God "desires all men to be saved," and that Jesus "gave Himself a ransom for all." That doesn't sound like only a select few. I believe it is safe to say that in no way does scripture teach limited atonement.



Point 4, Irresistable Grace. Since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, with irresistable grace, everyone should be saved, since it is impossible to resist the grace of God. But, Galatians 5.4 states, "You have become eastranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." Fallen from irresistable grace! How can that be? Those trying to be justified by the law are also estranged from Christ. Doesn't sound like irresistable grace to me. And, that leads to the next point.



Point 5, Perseverance of the Saints. This suggests that all saints, through God's unconditional love and irresistable grace, that all saints will be equipped to always persevere. If so, then why does scripture warn about an apostasy? You can't fall from something unless you are in it. In II Thessalonians 2, Paul wrote about the coming of the Lord, and wrote, "that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first..." Then there is the pronouncment by Paul that those who try to be justified by the Law, "you have fallen from grace." Saints falling from grace. This shows two things. God's grace is not irresistable even among the saints, and therefore, having fallen from grace, they are not able to pesevere.



There you have it. A discussion on the five points which are a part of a system of theology known as Calvinism.



PREDESTINATION



Certainly scripture teaches predestination. Where Calvinism and scripture part ways is what God's predestination is based on. Calvinism teaches that God loved his elect before the foundation of the world, and saved only those few. But that is not what scripture teaches.



For the truth we go to Romans 8.29 & 30, which states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined. these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."



Romans 8.29 plainly teaches that God's predestination is based on His foreknowledge. What does this word, "foreknew," mean? It is translated from the Greek, proginosko, which means, according to Vine, "to know before." It does not mean, "to love before," as Calvinists teach. If it did, the word would have to be, proagape, but as you can see, it's not.



Vine explains, "God's foreknowledge involves His electing grace, but does not preclude human will. He foreknows the exercise of faith which brings salvation."



Ephesians 1.5 & 11 further teaches that He "predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." "And it is in Christ, "in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."



So the doctrine of predestination properly is; according to the foreknowledge of God we are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, Jesus. Through predestination in Christ, we are called, we are justified, we are glorified, we are adopted as sons by Jesus Christ, through whom we obtain an inheritance, according to the pupose, good pleasure, and counsel of God's will.



A part of God's omniscience is His foreknowledge. God foreknows all things. Calvinism teaches that God foreknows all things because He has preplanned all things. However, I see no support for this in scripture.

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 09:12 AM

I wish you would have made a post one just one of the 5 points instead of all of them at once. There is just to much information to post on all of them at once.



What I will ask is how do you understand a verse like.



Rom 3:9-12

(9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

(10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

(11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

(12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

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Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 09:42 AM

Total depravity does not mean a bad person can't do a good deed. You can go to the hardest of criminals in prison and they will even tell you they have a "good" heart and have done good deeds, and they have stolen, killed, raped and have done other hideous crimes, yet they are still "criminals". What it means is we are totally depraved in getting to Heaven on the good deeds we perform between our sinful offenses against a Holy God. It means if we offer our good deed to God as a merit for us to justify our way into Heaven God will see those deeds as filthy rags being offered to Him. It means there is none good, NO NOT one!

I am with MoG on this issue as well, growing weary of the weak attacks. My mind is not going to be changed from anyone off a dating forum that does some fancy stretching and twisting of scriptures to make their point and also I think there are some pretty wacky theology around here, so much so I am not sure where the line should be drawn as to say who is my brother or who is just a neighbor. Anyway I am all for an open discussion or a legitimate debate on just about anything in fact that would be great! But trying to convert me or anyone else here is going to be a waisted effort. Personally I think that an Armenian (man's choice or free will view) has a lower view of God than a person that believes in the "total" sovereignty of God over His creation. That seems to make Grace more amazing.



For me! I had perfected a life style in the pleasures of sin! I was working as an entertainer in a ladies club and living sin to its fullest and in the midst of pride and a self indulging life of worldly pleasures I picked up a Bible and read it through and in the light of God's Law I saw my totally depravity at a time I thought I was a very "good" person. I clearly saw my need for a savior and that changed me radically. I was on top of the world and He came and dragged me kicking and screaming to Himself. A world I would have never chosen to leave came crashing down around me as I humbled myself before the mighty hand of a sovereign God that had opened my eyes. I did not open my eyes, I did not want them opened, He opened them anyway, I did not choose Him, I liked my own version of god I had suited for myself, but He choose me to know Him rightly and He did it before the foundations were laid. There was a radical transformation from what I was and what I am and what I could never go back to and I give all the credit, glory and thanks to God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ my savior. That IS what makes Grace so amazing!!!



I'll be holding on to God being the author and finisher of my faith! Thank you very much!

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 09:58 AM

Well Mr. Row,

I guess you're not a Calvinist. The Calvinists I know do teach that man is incapable of doing anything good unless God changes their heart. Besides, Total means all, entire, whole. Depravity means being debased and corrupt. If someone id totally, entirely, wholly debased and corrupt, how can they do any good thing? That is exactly what totally depraved means. I have wrestled with Calvinists for many years over this. And being a former Calvinist myself, I think I am well versed in the the five points.



Didy

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Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 10:25 AM

Zaohagios,



Romans 3 obviously teaches that Jews are under sin, because of the law. Paul quotes various places in the Old Testament, none of which refers to gentiles. Even Paul makes it plain that it is because of the law that no flesh will be justified. Only the people of Israel were given the law.



Sam

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Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 11:35 AM

Doesn't matter how well versed a person is they can still be wrong. I don't know anyone, myself included that hold to the doctrines of grace that would say total depravity is as you claim not being able to do a good deed. You have missed the point altogether. First off what standard are we using to know what is good? The bible says no one is good but God. So if God is the standard of what is good then no one is even close to good, that is unless you radically lower the standard of what is good. Remember good and nice are not the same thing. Anyone can do a kind act in a moment of self gratitude, being nice makes you feel good no matter who you are, you don't have be a be a Christian to get that good feeling from doing nice deeds to justify yourself or appease the conscience. In our eyes we see a nice act as a good deed but God sees the heart and knows it's deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, so a good deed by our standard would be an offense towards a Holy God.

I do not know the branch of Calvinism you claim to be from but like hyper Calvinism I would out right reject the doctrines you describe. I also do not know anyone that says if you are not a Calvinists you are not saved, I see great errors in where you came from if indeed that is what I understand you to describe.



5 points aside I believe God does the work from start to finish in a persons salvation. I believe He chooses that person and some how in His marvelous power of conversion gives the person what ever is needed for their eyes to be opened to the truth of the Gospel, and for them to respond to that truth in faith. It is all for His good pleasure to chose whom He will have mercy on and whom He will not. I believe that once a person knows "the" truth that was given to them by God and they respond rightly in repentance and faith to that truth, they can not/will not fall away. A false covert can fall away because they were "never" with us in the first place.

That and a lot more is how Calvinism was describe to me and that doctrine lined up with what I already believed from my own bible study.

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klmartin62

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 01:41 PM

Mr Row has it exactly right. What has been described above is Hyper-Calvinism. I have never even met anyone who agreed with any of that, and I have known many Calvinists.



My salvation story is much the same. I was doing bad and planned to continue doing bad. As a matter of fact, one month before God stepped in, I stood in the middle of a classroom and told the instructor that the only reason she believed in God was because she couldn't face the idea that when she dies, that was it. It was over, end of story.



A month later God dragged me kicking and screaming to the Light. I haven't turned away since.



So, you see, what you are telling us is kind of like telling someone who speaks in tongues that there is no such thing. We have experienced it first hand so we know you are wrong.



Blessings,

Leon

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Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 02:14 PM

Leon smart reply, I liked how you wrote that.It is classy. Food to think on, maybe that is what it took to get you saved. Maybe the call was so strong you were chosen to preach.Dennis

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DontHitThatMark

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Calvinism, The Five Points and Predestination
Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 02:42 PM

Well...I had a nice long post about the Parable of the Sower with a bunch of verses that took me close to 3 hours to finish...but...the horrendous CDFF auto-logout ate it. Maybe I'll do it again later...I'm too exasperated at the moment. Just want you guys to know I tried, lol. You'd get the basic idea just reading the parable yourselves though. God spreads the seed everywhere. Some accept it and are growing in Christ but they fall away, etc. etc. free will...blahblahblahtotalIdonotbelievetotaldepravityoroncesavedalwayssavedistrueblahblahblah. Yes, God does everything, but we must believe the truth.



Here's a fragment of the verses from the lost-post...you'll get the idea...there were just a lot more. "Believe and you will be saved". And I didn't even get to the "Have faith" ones. They're basically the same anyway. Feel free to look them up yourself. They're there.



Jhn 20:31

Jhn 17:20

Jhn 12:36

Jhn 8:24



Side-note. Basing doctrine on a personal experience is kinda shaky. And if God dragged/changed you why were you kicking and screaming? Shouldn't it have just been like....*poof*? Are you able to fight God's supreme force of will?



:peace::peace:

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klmartin62

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Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 04:27 PM

Mark, you wrote:

Side-note. Basing doctrine on a personal experience is kinda shaky. And if God dragged/changed you why were you kicking and screaming? Shouldn't it have just been like....*poof*? Are you able to fight God's supreme force of will?



Do you think anyone told Moses or Jesus that? What else was it formed by in the Bible? If you can not form doctrine from your personal experiences, then you have never experienced God. H has shown me more through my relationship with Him than I ever knew before.



Of course I fought Him. It didn't do any good, He taught m obedience through all this, and much more. When I followed His leading, I was blessed abundantly. When I rebelled, things got progressively worse until I was forced to follow out of self preservation. If you don't believe God will override your will to accomplish His purpose, you do not know your Bible.



Even Jesus did not claim to have a free will. He said He could do nothing except what the Father told Him to do, and could say nothing but what the Father gave Him to say. Are you saying you are above Jesus? Because that is what it sounds like to me every time someone starts harping on free will. Free will is what you have after God has given you over to your own desires. At that point there is no hope for you.



Blessings,

Leon

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Posted : 26 Jun, 2010 04:45 PM

The kicking and screaming is a metaphor of the spirit fighting the flesh. The kicking was my flesh wanted no part of a life of self denial, taking up my cross daily in self sacrifice with trials, tribulation and fighting off temptations. The screaming was me trying to justify the sins that I wanted to hang on to. My life didn't take a swing upward at conversion it was more like a plane in a nose dive crash. I totally reject prosperity preaching. Christianity is about salvation before a Holy and Just God that was gracious to save me through His love demonstrated on the cross.

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