In order to express His nature of holiness, truth, and justice, God MUT punish us for our sins. Sin personally offends God, and no one should be surprised or think that they will not be punished by God for their sins. Nor should anyone think or be surprised that SIN makes God very angry.
To deny that God get angry is to reject the necessity of Christ's death on the cross, and His death as being in vian to save us from our sins.
Based on Romans Chapter 1,
(1) What are some of the way God expresses His anger(wrath) toward sin?
Bingo Flood...Also...ifin yer usein an ref script cut & paste from online sources...use 8 point for the letters instead of 9 or12 point an remove the extra/double spaces from that paste...yer only allowed so many words an spaces here...
Wow am I glad that the only begotten Son of God had taken upon Himself,
all of my sins,and endured all of the wrath of God even death upon the cross;So that
i would not have to experience the wrath,or the judgement of God.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
I have to disagree that my repenting brings about the Lord forgiving me.
If repentance is the means of forgiveness,then why did Yeshua/Jesus have to die.
If I can be forgiven by any means other than the shed blood of Yeshua,then
the New Covenant is not true,and Yeshua cannot be the Messiah.
Yeshua is the Messiah,and forgiveness is by way of His sacrifice,through faith.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
I believe that we do not understand Grace,when we say the Lord punishes us for sin.
We are not punished,but rather chastened unto obedience.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye illegitimate and not sons.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
This Scripture reveals that the Lord was gracious and merciful to Noah and his family.
The ark is a type of Christ,for all those in the ark ,went through the judgement of God
yet, the ark bore the judgement,Noah and his family were spared.
Those outside the ark were destroyed.
Those outside of Christ will experience the full wrath of God.
I trust Yeshua/Jesus's death is sufficient,there is no longer any sacrifice nor work that i can do to
satisfy,the wrath of God,not even repentance.
From the cross,Yeshua proclaimed "Father forgive them:for they know not what they do",and "It is finished".
Trucker, did I read your post correctly? Are you saying that God does not punish us for our sins, and that becasue Jesus died on the cross for our sins, we don't have to repent in order that God may forgive us?
Surely, this is NOT what you're saying... can't be! I've read your post twice, and I keep seeing this same things, that you THINK that because Jesus died for your sins, you're off the hook and don't have to repent of your sins, and that God only chastises us for our sins, and there is no punishment.
Is this what you're saying? Please do explain. Because my Bible tell me that if I REPENT of my sins, God is faithful and just, and He will forgive me of all my sins, and He will cleanse me from all unrighteousness. Jesus came preazchcing REPNT OF YOUR SINS FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS HERE! And Jesus died so that we might have a right to repent before God of our sins, and be forgiven.
MY Bible also tells me that if I DO NOT REPENT of my sins, I will indeed suffering the consequences of my sins which is punishment from God.
Please explain why it is that YOU think God's grace covers your sin by Jesus death on the croos, and this is why you feel you DO NOT have to repent of your sins, or ask God to forgive you of your sins.
If this is what your post is saying. If you have NOT repented of your sins before God and asked Him forgivenness, then according to what the scriptures teaches, you are not saved, because you have not repented of your sins... then this classifies you as still being a SINNER, and no amount of grace is going to save you UNTIL YOU CONFESS YOUR SINS BEFORE GOD AND REPENT OF THEM AND TURN AWAY FROM THEM UNTO CHIRST.
I don't care or give a johnbrown what name you use to identify God or Jesus, you can call HIm Yahweh, Messiah, Emmanuel, Jehovah, or Adhonia... IF YOU HAVE NOT REPENTED OF YOUR SINS YOU ARE STILL A SINNER! And ONLY in His name will or can you be saved through REPENTANCE. Grace doesn't save you until you repent of sins.
Hope this is not what you're saying, that because Jesus died for your sins, you no longer have to repent of them.
If this is what you are saying, you got it all wrong, and have need to be born again by repenting of your sins before God. Jesus died so that you MIGHT have the freedom to go before God and repent, not so that you no longer have need to repent.
Repentance of sins is an everyday work for believers, we are to repent daily before God. Not once every blue moon, or think once was enough when we came to Christ 50 years ago... EVERYDAY IS REPENTANCE TIME!!
"In order to express His nature of holiness, truth, and justice, God MUST punish us for our sins."
Why is this necessarily so? In other words, from whence comes the compulsion on God's part to do this? If God's will is compelled by nothing other than himself, it doesn't seem as though He would *have* to punish sin. For instance, in his mercy He could forgive sin without punishing it. That certainly seems like a logical possibility. So why must He do anything?
"Sin personally offends God, and no one should be surprised or think that they will not be punished by God for their sins. Nor should anyone think or be surprised that SIN makes God very angry."
How does it personally offend God? I understand that scripture speaks of God in anthropomorphic language sometimes, but is it truly the case that when we sin, God becomes enraged and undergoes some kind of emotion change? This strikes me as highly unlikely. If God is offended at all, it can't be over any affect that our sins have on him. The only possibility is that he's offended because he knows how sin will affect us; not him. But again, I think the term "offended" is only being used analogically here.
"To deny that God get angry is to reject the necessity of Christ's death on the cross, and His death as being in vain to save us from our sins."
Only if we accept a unilateral theory of atonement: i.e., the substitionary theory. There are plenty of other theories, and they aren't all mutually exclusive. Why emphasis the substitionary theory over, for example, the Christus Victor theory?
You said: Only if we accept a unilateral theory of atonement: i.e., the substitionary theory. There are plenty of other theories, and they aren't all mutually exclusive. Why emphasis the substitionary theory over, for example, the Christus Victor theory?
We believe in substitutionary sacrifice because we are Christians and that is what the Bible teaches. Part of being a Christian is believing that the bible is the revealed word of God. What you are talking about is New Age stuff and there is nothing true about it.
"We believe in substitutionary sacrifice because we are Christians and that is what the Bible teaches."
If you are claiming it's the only theory the Bible teaches, then I'd disagree with you.
Let's push the envelope a bit. Assuming that the substitionary sacrifice is *the* only and dominant theory of the atonement, what exactly does it mean? We talk a lot about Christ sacrificing himself for our sins, but what are we saying?
Do we mean that God is somehow bloodthirsty, and that violent, torturous punishment is the only way of appeasing his wrath? What kind of God is that?
Moreover, even if this is case, *how* does the sacrifice death accomplish atonement? God pours out his anger on Christ so He doesn't have to pour it out on us? How does that accomplish the purposes of justice? Have you ever heard of a guilty person being exonerated by the punishment of another person?
"Part of being a Christian is believing that the bible is the revealed word of God."
I agree. And I also believe what God has revealed through his word. I just don't accept your myopic understanding of what's been revealed. I think there's more to it.
"What you are talking about is New Age stuff and there is nothing true about it."
What did I say that was "New Age?" I'm a Christian. Can you specifically cite the untruths?
I happen to think of the atonement more as a multifaceted diamond. It's hard to wrap our minds around it completely, and scripture uses a lot of different images and symbols to describe it. No single description is adequate. But taken en masse, a picture of what Christ accomplished starts coming into focus.
