Friends would it not be easier to say that my views come from the word of God and not what some guy said?
All men error by accident. Both of these men along with all those others are saved, ( I really do believe that ) and we ill meet them in heaven. When I read the word I do not read it in some other guys view point. I do use study guides but search it out first.:glow: I like the Messiniac Jewish view points friends. I chose to do that.Dennis
Okay, Steve... Here we go (but hopefully not in a circle!)...
The main issue I have w/ Calvin is regarding his misinterpretation of predestination/election and the subsequent idea of limited atonement.
Regarding dear Mr. Arminius, I disagree w/ his notion that true believers can lose their salvation... Lemme look up what else he believed and see if there's anything else I disagree w/... *Off I go to Google* Okay, I don't see anything else really. Calvin and Arminius don't seem to really disagree on everything... But then, I haven't really done more than glance at anything regarding Arminianism, so I could be wrong about that.
Regarding free will v. total depravity, I suppose that I believe something sorta in-between. I do believe that mankind is depraved, but not to the extent that there is no free will in the matter of repentance and salvation. I get the impression that Calvinists have the idea that humans are unable to make any kind of decision regarding salvation and that God forces it on some people while denying the possibility of salvation to others. If that impression is accurate, then I most definitely disagree w/ it!! The Arminianism camp seems to veer a bit too much the other way and deny any level of God's sovereignty in the mechanism of salvation.
Certainly feel free to correct me if I'm misunderstanding the doctrines of Calvin or Arminius. I am stating my disagreements to their doctrines based upon what they appear to be saying to me and how those conclusions differ from Scripture.
Calvin believed that God changed your heart and you came to Him thinking you made the choice, while in reality it was the Holy Spirit guiding you.
Arminians believe that man's will overrides God's will, thus questioning His sovereignty.
Calvin did believe that God chose who He would call. We don't know what criteria He uses to decide, it may be people that He knows will not accept anyway.
Arminians believe in a mixture of law and grace.
Just a few differences. I have not studied either extensively. Mainly because I believe as you, both had some of it right and some of it wrong.
Pixy my dear sister, the word does say your name can be blotted out of the Lambs book of life. That I believe can only happen to a real believer who commits the unforgivable sin,
I don't believe a real believer can commit that sin. I think the context was Jesus talking to unbelievers and warning them to watch what they say in their unbelief or they will not have the option of being saved, that some things are unforgivable.
As for the book of life, I think it contains everyone's name and that we are removed if we refuse our call, or don't believe. We are blotted out. The bible says no man can take us from His hand. If you study this in the original Greek there is no room for interpretation, no man means no one, nothing, not even self. It has a double negative which emphasizes the importance of this scripture and the seriousness of it.
@Dennis- Then salvation is not truly by God's grace if it can be lost through our actions. We must use Scripture to interpret Scripture... By the very definition of grace, we can know it is not something that is earned/unearned.
the unforgiveable sin does not exist,in context the jewish leaders were attributing the miracles of Christ to Satan,Jesus point to them was that if Im standing here in front of you performing miracles,and your giving the credit to satan,then you are beyond hope!
jesus is not here standing in front of us performing miracles,so we cant even recreate the conditions needed for said sin!
P.S. @Dennis- So... I was reading through some Psalms a bit ago and came across Psalm 30:11-12 and the note I've written in the margin above it.
Psalms 30:11-12
"You turned my wailing into dancing; you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy, that my heart may sing to you and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give you thanks forever."
And what I've written in the margin:
"Our deliverance is about God's glorification."
I think that is perhaps the crux of the argument over whether or not salavtion can be lost. We must remember that God is at the centre of the mechanism. Redemption has ALWAYS been about His glory. It has ALWAYS been about pointing to Him... not us... This was true when He delivered the Israelites and it was true when His Son shed His blood for us and it is true today in those quiet moments when we surrender our lives to Him.
When people say that man can lose His salvation, they are, in essence, choosing to glorify man's efforts over God's grace. They are saying that what man can do is beyond the reach of God's grace. They are limiting His power, authority, and sovereignty. In such a mechanism, man as being glorified as the chief factor in redemption, for it all hinges, precariously so, on man's ability (or rather, lack thereof!) to not sin.
We must not forget who we are relying on for our righteousness. Relying on one's self for righteousness was a battle lost long ago... I believe that we are sorely mistaken when we elevate ourselves to the same level as God... when we suggest that our performance is of equal or greater value to His Son's work on the cross. Quite simply, we are not that powerful. We have no ability to attain salvation by our own "righteousness" or to keep it by those means. Let's not demean God by saying that we can do anything to match His righteousness.
When we are saved, His righteousness is imputed to us, and is that righteousness which makes us worthy to enter into His presence. When we sin, do we strip God of His righteousness? I think not...
Galatians 3:15-25
"Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say 'and to seeds,' meaning many people, but 'and to your seed,' meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
"What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
"Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."
I agree,except for the limitations God puts on himself,such as ,he is not capable of lying.
What if,God being able to see the future saw that this creation that he was going to create would ALL GO BAD!
completely Depraved!Always choosing evil over good and wanting to excerpt his will over Gods.
Yet he still wanted a Remnant of worshippers that had free will.Would love and adore him freely,yet giving them absolute free will,would not make that poissible.
he would have to fundamentally change their nature
And as a reminder,an eternal example of what we would be left on our own!
anytime a theology elavates mans will to the level of Gods
it is,In my mind,a flawed theology.
In Christ
Steve
P.S. I wrote that myself,arent you proud of me Pixy?:dancingp:
P.S.Ive always said that these opposing veiws should not divide us.:yay:
