Why is it so important for believers to come into agreement with the word of God, it is past time to start believing the word of God and put down all the walls, because they divide and that is what our enemy's intention is to divide and conquer the body of Christ.
God said:Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Satan said:1 � Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 � And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise,
Satan said you won't die.
You know what it is still happenning today, beware of what you believe take heed of what you hear and you get in the bible and ask father teach me your word, and if your church does not teach the word of God find one that does.
One Example commonly said by Christians is I am a sinner saved by Grace. My question is to you who told you that was it of the one that from the beginning said God did not say.
Yes God does not say you are a sinner, if you are in his family, quite the contrary.
More importantly we need to understand why it is so important to understand you are not a sinner.
we are not supposed to be in bondage to sin due to what Jesus did on the cross for US
that does not mean that we dont sin. Why do you think we have to repent? Iniquities and transgressions...we sin intentionally sometimes and then unintentionally.
We are not a slave to it, Jesus broke the curse when He died.
PJ I see your still on the doctrine arguement.
I also see what your doing...when we say we're sinners, then it gives us a license to sin but being under grace means it's ok. I see that your trying to make people aware that we are no longer sinners, I get it.
but we keep going back to the whole big arguement in relation to theology and it's a battle that no one wins.
These men, CAlvin, Arminius, Fox, Spener, Luther...all good God loving/fearing men.
These topics get your going and it seems to be a passion of yours, do you have any other passions that we can discuss on these forums? I'm not suggesting your hide your light cuz I know that's where your going...ask yourself this, is GOD going to keep these individuals out of heaven if they dont change their beliefs? is getting into heaven as difficult as people make it seem? the answer is NO, christianity is not difficult, God didnt intend for it to be. These doctrines that are being argued over, it's not enough that someone will be left behind.:stop:
I'm in love with the Lord, I love all you guys and I pray for peace, love and wisdom for us all. Most of all, love.
You may say no, but I believe there is an ulterior motive behind this topic and I feel/hear the tension building up again.
Steve, it is obviously a shortcoming on my part, communicating my point, I never said a christian could not sin, my statement is a Christian is not a sinner.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Who is the man spoken of in this passage, is it the outward man or the inward man, our body sure does not become new.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Who is the understood me in this scripture, that is free from the law of sin and death, and what law set him free of the law of sin and death.
I don't how else to respond to this other as i will try to do so it may get lengthy.
The bible teaches man is distinctly a three part being:1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This scripture points out man is a three part being Spirit, soul and body. I like to say it like I have heard it in the past to make it clear.
Man is a spirit, he has a soul and he lives in a body.
Often times people seem to believe soul and spirit are one and the same, the above scripture denotes three separate components.
Another scripture also shows this truth and clear distinction:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discern er of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Spirit of man is made in the image of our father and his likeness, for we know God is a Spirit.
I believe we have to conclude the man referred to in 2nd cor 5:17, is the spirit being and that man is made all new.
Notice what this one scripture says to help this point, the soul of man is not saved and we will see that the soul of man is under the influence of the spirit, or also denoted as the inward man, or hidden man of the heart.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
In romans if you will study it,Paul talks about being under the law
and if you will follow it thru you will see, as he says we are no free, but the problem is the flesh, carnal nature, which man a spirit is no longer carnal, his mind is yes, but the mind is not the spirit but part of his soul.
Notice the language:Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Notice the your mind not you but your mind, you must do something with your mind.
Eph 2 tells us of the carnal mind and its problem, but it is no longer under death but you have to know and understand that truth and you, me must renew our mind that we may prove the will of God.
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway
notice I keep my body under, in otherwords the hidden man of the heart is responsible to keep his body under.
1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
In response to a earlier thread and accusation, I want to share my heart concerning my motive to post on this forum, it is not important to me to try and impress anyone with knowledge of the word of God, anything I have good in my life or in me is because of the lord Jesus Christ. Not one minute do I think I am right, but I sure do believe he is Jesus, and to whom much is given much is required.
What motivates me:
I love God
I love people
I hate sin and what it does to people, families
I am motivated by the fact of sin in my own life and the cost of it, If I can help but one person it is worth the railing.
I am motivated because I grew up in a family where God was not allowed because Satan Had sold my father the lie, God took his mother by cancer.
I am motivated because, I am a widower and no longer have the gift of God in my life, and my teenagers no longer have their mother.
I am motivated because I know Satan is the author of all evil, and Jesus defeated him, but most christians do not know they have the responsibility to give no place to him.
I am motivated because I know, know the truth, It is no longer I that live but the christ that liveth in me
Yes I am so glad to know that love takes no account of the evil done to him, thus I can be free of the bondage of not knowing that truth
PJ, thank you for all of your clarification; I do understand your line of thinking here and where you're coming from. However, I do still disagree with the idea that Christians are not sinners. As you correctly pointed out, when we find that our interpretations of 2 different passages are incongruent, we must keep looking and keep studying the Scripture, and continue to ask the Lord for the wisdom to interpret His Word accurately. It's very important that we look at each verse/passage w/in the context of the entire Bible. The danger of isolating a verse or passage for interpretation is that we can often arrive at misunderstandings of what the Word is actually telling us.
Looking at the Bible as a whole, I see no evidence that the phrase "new creature" implies that we become sinless beings in this life. I do believe the verse to be true--that we become new creatures upon being saved, in that our spirits are made alive in Christ and that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
I think manofgod made a really good point: Paul very clearly still saw himself as one who sins (Romans 7:14-25, Philippians 3:12). I don't think that there are any reasonable arguments that Paul wasn't actually saved, and in believing that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, I believe that Paul's view of himself, sin, and salvation is correct. I don't believe that God would have authored so much of the New Testament through Paul if Paul did not have a mature understanding of spiritual matters.
It's also worth mentioning that Paul's writings are letters to churches and specific believers. While it's probable that these local bodies of Christ had nonbelievers among them, I think it's a stretch to say that Paul's writings about sin, temptation, and forgiveness of one another are addressed to nonbelievers only (or at all). He warns against specific sins time and time again and I believe those passages to be to and for believers, for the reason that there is no point in warning a nonbeliever against specific sins, as he cannot gain righteousness through sinning less. As the saying goes, "You cannot clean a fish before you catch it." I think it's reasonable to conclude from this that believers do still sin. If they instantaneously became sinless upon salvation, then there would be no need to warn against sin or discuss the forgiveness of fellow believers (2 Corinthians 2:5-11).
You quoted Romans 8:2, which talks about us being set free from the law of sin and death. And there a multiple other verses that talk about being set free, as well. But, again, if we look at the Bible as a whole, we can know that being set free from the law of sin and death, does not mean that we become sinless in this life.
Romans 7:14-25
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Philippians 3:12
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
