No ! You are beating up a Person from the Past that is long gone in History an depraving self an others of the Life of today...What does it matter the past deeds of the dead...What does matter is the Presant deeds an fruits that persons in an through Christ Jesus produce for HIS Glory...The intire Bible is full of People an History repeating itself...
The Bible/Word/GOD/Jesus/HolySpirit says...Do not carry dead bodies...which in all honesty is what is bein done here...Now that is total depravity of livin in the Spirit of today...xo
What you have said would seem to fit, in that definition.
Calvin's doctrine is not in the past, there are those on this board, that are full of it.
What has the past to do with that.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1 � But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 � And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 � And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 � But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
When you love the lord and his people, it would be wise to wake up to the deception.
PhillipJohn, it's plain easy: We are not capable of anything good ourselves
for the imagination of man' heart is evil from his youth
(Gen 8,21b)
Don't you always ask for scriptural proof? So if you say otherwise, you are the one with scripture against yourself and you are the one to think about what happens with false prophets, right?
We cannot do a thing that is good without God, for ONLY God is good (you know Jesus says so as well).
Can a bad tree bring good fruit? No. So we, being bad cannot bring good fruit, good fruit can only come of us, if we do things with God, who is the ONLY one good, the good tree.
Now, are you gonna answer with a two word question again that has nothing to do with the point I made, PhillipJohn?
That was all that was written. How can you prove your point? If we follow Christ should not his love show in us? What gospel do you preach? I follow not Armimen, not Calvin but Jesus.
Even though I do not agree with calvin I will not beat up on those who do.As I am above that.I am a mature christian who understands none of us are perfect.
SO, WHY write Calvins theory???? And attack him. He is like me, he fell short.I will only know the truth when I meet Jesus.
So, Why do you dislike Calvin Phillup? I ask for your reason not bible verses,ok.Personel response is best.Dennis
** When you love the lord and his people, it would be wise to wake up to the deception.** I believe We are All awake an can smell the Coffee so to speak...
Who are you dirrectin this to ? All of US or one in particular ? Are you sayin that We all have it wrong ? Cuz thats a purty seriously an acusation PJ...:rolleyes:...xo
What do the Protestant Reformers Mean by "Total Depravity"?
"Total" doesn't mean "utter." It doesn't mean that we are as bad as we can possibly be. The Reformers admit that there is much that fallen humankind can do, and can do superbly well: science, mathematics, government, art, music, painting ("culture" in general), and what Calvin calls "mechanical" arts (i.e., engineering.)
However, "total depravity" does mean
[1] the scope of the fall is total: there is no human undertaking that isn't fallen, sin-riddled, corrupted.
[2] the penetration of the fall is comprehensive: there is no aspect of the human being (reason, will, affect) that is unaffected and by which we can restore ourselves.
E.g. (i), we can still reason (or else we shouldn't be human; the structure of reason survives the fall), but now our reason subserves the wrong end or purpose, particularly as we approach the specifically human or divine. Reason now applies itself to aggrandizement of ourselves, or exploitation of others, or the legitimization of unconscious motivation (i.e., rationalization).
E.g. (ii), we can still will (to be without will is to have ceased to be human), and can still will moral good, but we cannot will the good: the kingdom of God . We cannot will ourselves out of our sinnership, cannot will ourselves into the kingdom. (Note John 3:3: apart from Spirit-regeneration we cannot so much as see the kingdom, much less enter it.) The will is "bound" or "enslaved" (not free) in that it cannot will righteousness. But such bondage is never to be confused with philosophical determinism: the Reformers never say that genuine choice is denied us with respect to creaturely matters.
E.g. (iii), we can still love, but now our affections are misaligned; we love what we ought to hate and hate what we ought to love. At the very least we love the creature above the Creator; our loves are "disordered affections": lesser loves (legitimate in themselves) usurp our greater love (for God.) In addition our creaturely loves are riddled with self-interest.
[3] No one part of the society can save the rest. The individual cannot save the society as a whole, or the society the individual. Economics cannot put right what sociologists identify as the human problem; neither can sociologists put right what economists identify as the human problem.
While Marx reduces all considerations (Freud's explanation included) to the dialectical laws of materialism (and one's place in the economic spectrum), and while Freud reduces all considerations (Marx's explanation included) to intra-psychic unconscious conflict, the doctrine of Total Depravity exposes both as one-sided and short-sighted.
Note too that culture, however sophisticated (Kulturprotestantismus) is not the kingdom, is not even the vestibule to the kingdom, at the same time that culture remains a creaturely good, albeit fallen.
Wesley insisted that he differed "not a hair's breadth" from the Reformers on this point.
