Author	Thread: history!
Admin	history! Posted : 22 Apr, 2010 06:23 AM The great majority of the creeds of historic Christendom have set forth the doctrines of Election, Predestination, and final Perseverance, as will readily be seen by any one who will make even a cursory study of the subject. On the other hand Arminianism existed for centuries only as a heresy on the outskirts of true religion, and in fact it was not championed by an organized Christian church until the year 1784, at which time it was incorporated into the system of doctrine of the Methodist Church in England. Post Reply
View Profile History	history! Posted : 23 Apr, 2010 07:15 AM Be careful so your freedom (free will) will not lead you into damnation by own choice:stop: you gotta use your freedom to do good things out of yourself alone, without God, in order to be acceptable for Him. Because Jesus died on the cross for you that is... eh... hmm... seems to make no sense if I can save myself... Now I'm confused, better stick to being saved by the grace of God and not by own deeds.:nahnah: God bless you all. Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	history! Posted : 23 Apr, 2010 09:19 AM But...Jesus/God also wants us to love Him...and love is worthless if it isn't a free choice....which is why God created all higher beings with free will. He wants us to love Him because....we love Him. Not because He made us love Him. Why didn't He "live in Lucifer", and change him and make him love Him and skip this whole mess? Could it be because Lucifer didn't want Him to? The only other option is that God didn't do it so He could make us all suffer horribly for 6,000 years...and that isn't Fatherly love. Why die for someone to show them you love them and then force them to love you? :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	history! Posted : 23 Apr, 2010 03:20 PM @Mark: You write love is worth nothing if it isn't free choice. Is that really what you mean? Or do you rather mean something like "love isn't worth nothing when we basically oppose to it". Let me explain what I mean: For all I have experienced, there was never a love that was chosen to be. I never chose to love anybody, it just happened. Parents don't chose to love their children, children don't chose to love their parents, we don't date somebody, find her or him attractive or stimulating in one way and the other and then do decide to love that very person. Love comes freely, without being able to control it. You cannot make somebody love somebody else. And you cannot stop love by free choice, otherwise it would be so much easier and less painful if we are betrayed or being left by our partners. Love comes without our will, without our choice, but when it's there, we do not disconsent (does this word exist? I mean we do not reject it). You say the only other option was that He made us suffer horribly. I know this conclusion is easy to draw, and very straight forward. I do believe, that I do not know everything, and that I cannot make up all options in my mind. All I can do is see what's going on around me, read the bible and pray. I see love being not decided upon, but just happening. I see the bible is at least not as clear about free will as some say here, and I see that there is a point it what the reformers said when saying grace was given free and we could not have a decision about that. After all, this is what I have experienced in my life, and I cannot undo this experiences. So I do see, like yo see, the problem of all of us suffering despite God being in control. This is an old problem, called the problem of theodicee. And we cannot have an answer to it, many tried to find the answer, but there is none. All we can have is the answer God gave to Job: The answer was that God was much greater and Job wasn't even in the position to question what od does, even if it means suffering. As for myself, I do believe strongly that God knows what He's doing, and that He would not have any of us suffer only a bit if it wasn't necessary. So even if we do not understand it at the moment, and we cannot understand God's ways, still everything is in perfect order, for God is watching over us. You ask why die for someone to show them you love them and then make them love you. If you put it that way, it is really sounding ridiculous. But what about: He died for us and then He opened our eyes and so we have no other chance to love Him back. When I speak for myself, I was so overwhelmed when He opened my eyes, how could I not love Him, thank Him? Want to do His will? He doesn't force us to love Him. He changes our minds so we have no other chance to love Him and follow Him, there is no other choice for us. More like this way. I do not think of God pressing me to do something, I am perfectly in consent with what He did to me, and I wish He'd do so much more, for I know I am still a sinner and I cannot wait to be with Him and leave my sinful flesh behind me once. But I have to live this life before and that I will do, until He calls me to come home, and again, I will have no choice bt to obey His call. God bless you Post Reply

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