Who said here that abortion was right? Mst have missed this...
Your president can be called a lot, but certainly not a hardcore socialist. As long as there are private companies in your country and not all that is above a certain level of profit is state run, before you have no right to have work etc, you are far from socialism, believe me. Obama is just a bit more Rooseveltish than Reagan, but that is democracy, right? There was a great divide when Bush came to presidency, and the same happens now. Wait 2 or three years, look how things have developed and if the USA isn't ruined by then, I guess Obama's job has not been all that bad in the end, but we shall see and after all, it's your president, not mine.
What is it you mean by euro-socialist country? I really wonder because I don't understand the meaning of the term. We have no socialism here, except maybe for Belars which is the last dictatorship in Europe as far as I know...
We do have freedoms, maybe more freedoms in certain fields than you have, it just depends on where it hurts people to have freedoms cut off. I know about your founding father trying to have a lean government. The same applies here, we are in Germany also a federal republic. We also have states which agree on many things on their own, without federal government having a say. The same applies to the European level, though there things are still in development.
I know that the USA kicked some dictator's backs, but on the same time supported others. We are in germany very happy the GIs came to get us rid of Hitler, but this doesn't mean we will now cheer to anything you do, good or bad.
As for my part I am not sure if I prefer Saddam in power and having at least some kind of public order, knowing that it is a dictatorship and unjust to the bone, than having a weak system with riots everywhere and suicide bombers all around. People die in both. So what is better with the weak democratic Iraq we have today?
And one thing about listening to the left. As I am German and know the history of my country, you will excuse that I rather don't listen to the right than to the left, for 12 years of right wing government between 1933 and 1945 left Germany and Europe way more damaged than 40 years of communist rule in the GDR.
I am not for political correctness, I am for speaking my mind (as you can see in my first posting in this thread). I know that the left has also bad sides, but I do not see what is bad about having a system that enables poor people to survive a desease? This is what I do not understand abot consevative christians in America, because as I see it the Father tells us to love our next and care for them. Then why not do so in making health care available, even if it coasts money? You cannot serve the Mammon and God at the same time, you know...
I don't mean to offend anybody, this is really a thing I do not understand, cannot understand completely. Bt after all, I am European and you are Americans, and there are very basic differences in our cultures and how we see the world, though the WASP guys among you almost look like we do...
I suppose you mean to say that americans do not ACCEPT socialism.
I do not know whether you are the sole representative of the american people here, but I do want to point out, that nobody paints off the Dutch people as socialists who simply put their elder to death through euthanasia.
Also the Dutch people have voted on abortion. Whether the americans agree or not is of no importance at all. However if you want to discuss this matter as a christian, I am looking forward to a thread re this issue.
As to the politics of your elected president. I think it can hardly be the fault of European socialists that you americans wind up having one (if so at all)
And I agree with Abedjau as to dictators. You have kicked some out and have put some in. But freedom had nothing to do with it. It was only in the (financial) interest of the USA that those actions were taken. I am not judging this. I just find it too ego flattering that you seem to think that america is the good guy and the rest of the world the bad guys.
There is a small but seriously significant difference between "helping others" and "forcing people to help others through "social" programs". Please don't bring God's will for us as human beings into social government programs...because it's pointless. In fact...it's a real easy way for a lot of people to cop out of actually helping people and still feel good about themselves. And ALSO! I should think it's painfully....painfully obvious what "benefit" these "social" programs bring to the table. Waste, laziness...not everyone in these programs are "sick and helpless"...and it ends up compounding the problem. Pardon a bit of Patriotic pride here....but The United States Of America...one of the youngest countries in existence...also somehow the richest...most powerful country on the planet...by....far....did not reach this state by "social programs". In fact...it's the social programs that are killing us right now! Hard work is what drove this country to the top...individuals striving for the best because they're free to do so. Freedom is a God given right. A house is not. Health-care is not. Welfare is not.
2 Thess. 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. 12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. 13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. 14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Social programs break the God-given human spirit. "Why strive to be better? Why work hard? We get everything for free!" Anyway...the US is capitalist. Yes. But we worked so hard...and become so wealthy...that it lifted even the poorest out of poverty. Which was the plan the founding fathers put in place. "Work so hard that even the poorest live in luxury". And...it worked....and now they're trying to break it with "government regulation" and "social programs". I should think it would be extremely obvious what works and what doesn't. Capitalism obviously works. The US is the best country in the world(...or...was not too long ago). Hands down. I'm not even going to attempt to try to be humble about it...because it is just very obvious. Communism, socialism, and "social programs" drag everyone down the the same level and then forces them into submission and dependence to human power.
I fully respect your opinions about social programs in general and your feelings about your country.
Your fellow american attacked without no knowledge of facts the social programs in my country by stating that Muslims are abusing them and drying them out.
By the way, social programs in Europe are not like volunteer soup kitchens or private charity... they are temporarily granted by the government (and every tax payer contributes for that) for those who find themselves in a life-situation which does not allow them to work (and eat). I cannot remember ever having dragged "God�s Will" in any post where I express my personal opinion but I am brought up, as is Abedjau, with the idea that we should look after the less fortunate. I guess that is why these social programs were being approved in our parliments, because believers and nonbelievers, left and right thinkers, protestants, catholics and muslims actually agreed that no one should be dying in the streets of hunger. Also we found it very humiliating for those people to go beg in the streets as we feel that most of them have not done anything to deserve their disability to work. With the wealth the Netherlands is blessed with, we were taught to share. I am not ashamed of that.
Well Mark that was an Excellent post my brother,I agree 100 percent and couldnt have said it better myself.........I would also add that socalism breeds lazieness.....what motivates a man to be super productive when the government just takes your profits and gives them to people who sit on the porch and drink 40s all day........and before I get in trouble for that comment,I must say I know many of them personally.....I used to run in those circles before the lord grabbed me up by the britches and said I was his property......I have heard many people say they will just play crazy and get a check......problem is,us hard working folks pay the bill......nope not going for that for a second......and SOS....the majority of this country is still center right according to all the poles....beleive me....by your standards Obama may not be a socalist,but we are undergoing a revolution in this country.....I for one applaud the tea partiers and plan to attend one this month.......the american spirit is alive and well...........God Bless.......Steve
It was me bringing in God's will a bit. Though maybe not in the way Mark understood it.
@Mark and all the other proud Americans:
Yes, by our standards Obama is a moderate right wing. This is why there is no reason calling him socialist. He might seem so, as he is the most left politician you might have been seeing in your lifetime, but well, let's get this issue behind.
I understand that yo are proud of your country. That's no bad thing (though the national pride is something we in Germany have lost an understanding for after Hitler, but that's another story).
I understand America has become strong by kicking its people's backs, and if you like that there is nothing for me to say about it.
What I didn't like was how my continent (for we are not a country but also not just some countries collaborating, we try something new) was being put down for something we take pride in: our social security programs. Many people here believe that the worse conditions with higher unemployment and greater poverty getting ground is because of capitalism being too powerful around here after the east block collapsed (not that we wanted it back, remember, German speaking here, happy to live in one country without a wall today).
So after all, you take pride in your system, we take pride in ours, and we see where it leads to, as one can really have the nicest discussions that lead nowhere about the pros and cons of social security.
One final thought, about the God's will thing: I agree that best is if we individually go and help the poor. It is much better than relying on the state alone to get things done, because this will never be perfect. But when I remember right, the prophets of the old testament blamed the kings for not caring for the poor and exploiting them. Of course, we have no more kings in our modern democracies (looking at that, Germany is much younger than the USA. Founding date 1949, Last update 1990) but the people are the sovereign of the state. So today, Amos would maybe be talking to the people: Oh ye fat cows of the Bashan...
Let's not get too deep into this, just for consideration.
God bless you all, wherever you are from and wherever you put your cross on election day...
Well...nobody is kicking my back while I attempt to run my own business...I don't know what you meant by that so I'ma leave it alone. I understand that we should help people that are under hard times or that are disabled...but unfortunately it hasn't stopped there. People that can contribute and don't are sitting around sucking people dry. But my point was...freedom built this country. Capitalism works far better then any kind of social program or socialism in this imperfect world. A country built on capitalism rose to be the strongest nation in the world by far. Not because people were getting kicked in the back. It was because they had incentive to work hard.The harder you worked the better you did. I'm just saying that there is no limit to what a free person can do...and that these "social programs" have a bad habit of turning normal people into lazy selfish people.
"I need health care! Me, me! Force everyone to pay for it so I can have it for free! Me! I want!"
Bad thing is...when you don't earn something...you don't value it...and you abuse it...just like a spoiled little child that is given everything they want, and when they break their toys? They want you to buy them new ones...because there's no consequence for them, and if you don't get it for them they throw a tantrum and complain until they do. How strange it is that this stuff carries into adulthood...
Mark, I got your thought. A few things before I answer to it:
1. We have market economy here, too, not too different from your system though we have more social security.
2. The question would also be how to define freedom. You seem to define freedom as: free from the state getting in my way too much. I'd say, free to do what I decide is best for me (and others)
I agree with you that capitalism works like a charm. There is no question about it. And there will always be people who take advantage of welfare, no doubt. But I rather have some people living on my cost than know that someplace people want to achieve something but cannot make ends meet because they lack the support for it. And about working systems: Dictatorships, if run cleverly, work far better than democracies. So running well is no question of freedom, it's a question of adapting to the world as it is.
Both systems, pure capitalism and the welfare system do have positive and negative sides. Pure capitalism as in America makes the country big and strong, but it also exploits the greed of people, it is so strong because it can take advantage of that people want ever more more and more. I don't say that's what all Americans do, and that all were greedy, I speak about the system exploiting the lowest instincts. The same is true for what you call socialism (we branded the word social market economy in Germany, for socialism is what happend on the other side of the iron curtain). The system you call socialism exploits the laziness of people, what you said about children having broken toys. But not everybody turns out childish living in Europe, and we do also have very competitive companies (compare Daimler to Chrysler or General Motors), so it can't be that we all are lazy.
The good thing about a non social system is, the state leaves you alone and you can choose yourself to help those in need. The downside is: Few people will really take the time and help those in need, so you end up helping only as many as you can. The problem of poverty still strikes.
The social system will have a base standard for the people, there will still be some in need of help, but in smaller numbers. That's the positive of it. The downside is: People might get into an attitude of: Why work anyway and be lazy (though you'd have to come to Germany these days and see how things really are, if you won't take a job with blackwater in Iraq your social help will be cut down to "see yourself how to survive", because the conservatives got -for my taste- too much influence). This is the danger here, that some of the richer people pay too much for the poor and drag some through life.
I am willing to bear this if I every turn out to be rich, rather than bearing no social net in my country. This has also something to do with freedom. The freedom to start over when failing. You have a net that keeps you from falling too deep, and you can get up again. You do not have to bother too much about how to feed your family, and can be more creative that way, fell better and work harder though.
But as I said: These are two different approaches to the problem of poverty. One tells you to see how you can get through, the other tells you that you won't fall too deep, but whenever you get up on your feet you've got to give something to help the others, too.
I can see your point I suppose...but there is never much excuse for not being able to feed your family. There's always something you could do...I've never been down that far before...so I don't know...but the people I see on welfare and in social programs the most are just lazy/unmotivated....and probably unmotivated because they see no reason to get out and scrounge around for a way to make money...because they're getting paid to do nothing...
