1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Are not the ELECT, those who make a choice to choose and receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior for the remission of their sins?
And being God's elect has nothing to do with God choosing anyone as being His SPECIAL elect outside of this? After all, this would be partiality and showing favor, and He has said He is not a God is partial toward anyone.
So is God a respector of person by having an elect group, and the rest of us are left out of His perfect plans? So, did Goid not get up one morning and say to Jesus and the Holy Spirit, I think I'm going to choose for myself an elect group of people and only they will inherit my salvation and find favor... so lets have a vote... I don't think so.
Not only this, but doesn't He also tell us in His word that He wishes that ALL men/people every where to be saved?
And not only this, but if God has already chosen His elect, then what was the purpose of His coming to earth through Jeus Christ to save His people from their sins? Then would not the suffering death and the blood of Jesus be in vain? Because the elect would already have salvation if God has already chosen them from the beginning. So, Why would there be a need for salvation period, if a person has already been chosen by God as His elect, which would mean that they are so good and righteous, and God knew they would be, that He chose them before the foundation of the earth to be His elect.
And not only this, If they are the elect chosen by God, why has God told them they are His elect? It would seem that since he is a God of order, and has promised to reveal to us all things, why is it that those who are the elect don't know they are the elect?
And not only this, who does Roamns chapter 10 fit into all of this/ It it only for the elect? Or is it for ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE SAVED and for those who are BEING SAVED?
...just asking. Maybe those who are the elect outside of believing, repenting, and faith should tell the rest of us when were they notified they wer of God's elect.
Of course, God already knows those who will be saved, and those who are being saved... but outside of receiving His Son, AIN"T nobody saved nor His elect. God know the end, before He tells us the beginning...
There you go again believing the bible, that was very well Said.
That same theology also says you can do nothing to get saved it just happens, you can not anything to be saved, in otherwords they would have you to believe being a doer of the word is works.
Jesus said if you are a hearer only but not a doer, you will deceive yourself
Benny, this is in response to something you said about faith. Hope I got it right as to your point.
Nevertheless, Faith through prayer can be increased. The disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith.
... and Faith can also be cultivated through experiences. All the life expereineces we go through cultivate our faith, and takes us from faith to faith when we endure unto the end of whatever we're going through. Does not Paul in Romans chapter 5, and much of his writngs teach these things. and as well in the book of James ?
Rather than saying our place was to believe scripture, could we as well say our place is to believe what God teaches us through scripture? It might seem as to be a splitting of hair to you, but for me there is a big difference. So what would you say of that? Do we mean the same or do you mean something different?
Of course the Holy Spirit is not our doer. We are responsible for what we do. But I have experienced situations in which I could not really decide, when things became so clear to me that I had no real choice to reject them. When I understood the meaning of the death of Christ for us, for me, there was no other way to understand this, there was no way to reject what I had now seen anew. The Spirit helped me there to see, He opened my eyes in a way, but I did not do anything, I did not change myself, I was changed and looking back I do not see any way how I could have rejected it then or later. Can you reject that the sky is blue and that it's warm in the sun?
@Ella:
Looking back in yor life, can you really say you choose to have Jesus Christ as your personal saviour? Wasn't it something unavoidable after seeing the truth? I ask because I get the impression I am the only one with such an experience. Am I alone here?
I agree with you that it is a tough thought that God might choose some and doom others. But doesn't the bible say that God is it who brings us to faith, and not ourselves?
Btw: Did you mean God speaking to Jesus and the Spirit, or the Father speaking to them? Sometimes I wonder why people mix up God and the Father, for the Son and the Spirit are equally God...
About the question why Jesus came, I wonder if it was to make us see. So He came really for us, because we would not otherwise see the love God has for us. After all, he reconcieled us with the Father and not the Father with us. So it was us who were angry and wrathful rather than Him. At least so it seems to me (I know there is much say about the wrath of God in the bible, but this seems to be meaning wrath at a certain time because of a certain deed, while men being wrathful at God seems to be constant throughout time. Men hate God, for He is God and man ist not.)
Who said the elect wouldn't know they were the elect? Do you believe in Christ? In His death for our sins? Yes? Then you belong to the elect, it's so easy.
I don't understand what you mean with Romans 10 here? Can you explain broader for me slow thinker?
Wherefrom do you get the idea, that there was election outside of believing, repenting and faith? Who said that? If that is not there, how could one be elect?
@PhillipJohn again:
Would you say you can do anything to be saved? Why then did Christ have to die for you? If you can do it on your own, you wouldn't need Christ. Of course being a doer is part of the whole thing. But if you really are a believer, you won't refrain from doing. That is, if you don't do, then you didn't really believe in the first place. But doing won't be of any help, for all that is of help has been done by Him. And all that will be of help for those yet not believing will be done by Him, leading them to faith by the Holy Spirit. Nothing men can do.
@Ella again:
I am not sure I get you right. I agree with you, that faith can become stronger or be increased. And this can happen after prayer. But what would you say, is it our prayer that strengthens faith, or is this the answer to our prayer, that God strengthens our faith through the Holy Spirit. Can you sit down and pray and use praying as a tool to increase faith the way you want it to be, or is it all up to God? This is what I mean by faith coming from God. I'd say we can do nothing on ourselves, all we can do is beg God to help.
The same about the experiences. The same experiences can destroy faith or make it strong. After WW2, the soldiers who came home had seen horrors we cannot imagine, and many even took part in it (remember, I'm German). Some came to faith during the war, for they saw there was nobody being able to help mankind but God. Others saw the same horrors and said, that there could not be a God if all this can just happen.
So again I would say, some are lead to believe by the Spirit and some lose their faith, maybe they never had real deep faith, who knows.
Benny I am simply saying what the word of god says, believing is a choice, an act of your will, you do not have to have the holy spirit to do something.
the Bible teaches us that he give all of us saved and the unsaved a MEASURE of faith. And He rains blessings upon us saved and unsaved according to how we USE our faith.
As Jesus teaches, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, much can be done. Our faith is increased and cultivated when you go through life experiences, and endure as Paul and James speaks, hardships. If a person's faith is destoryed during these hard ships, then their faith is/was weak, and they were not believing in God nor trusting in Him, but in thier own strength to overcome or for things to come to pass.
Abraham (Romans chapter 4,) is the father of our faith, why? Because he believed God and trusted God's word that He would do just as He said he would do. Many people don't do this, and whne things get rough, they bail out, and loses hope or think or says it was God, instaed of saying, They were the ones who were moving and working things according to how they thought things should be.
You're right, nothing can be done without the Holy Sprit to guide us, but even the Holy Spirit isn't going to guide us, meaning believers if we don't put our faith into action. Hebrews chapter 11. But even a sinner put his/her faith into action, becasue this has been given to all of God creatures, a measure of faith, which is our hope.
As Hebrews chapter 11, says Faith is the SUBSTANCE (ingredient) OF THINGS HOPED FOR , and the evidence(proof) of things not seen. Faith is the same as the flour that goes into a cake, the main ingredient, can't bake a cake without the main ingredient which is the flour. Can't make things happen in your life without faith. Faith is taking action and risk, but with God as your evidence, that if it is according to His WILL, it will come to pass. Prayer without faith is dead, just as faith without works is dead.
I believe I did choose AFTER God's influence convicted me of a need to change my life. I've always been "a christian". Never went far away. But when I was 21 I started to see that I was just "doing" Christianity, and not "living" it. I was having a hard time seeing the point to life and instead of taking the easy way out I decided to really "try" to follow God and "try" to let Him control my "pointless" life. I guess my point is...it was a decision after a conviction. It wasn't "all me"...but I believe I did have a part to play. I believe God moves His influence on all of us. Everyone. Everywhere. But like the parable of the sower...the seed doesn't always fall in good soil...meaning some peoples hearts are hardened against God. God knows this, but He still spreads His seed everywhere. Why? If we have no part to play? If there's no chance for the thorny ground, why scatter seed there? Anyway...my personal belief is that after God plants His seed in us, everyone has a choice...but some people love this life and serving themselves better than the next life and serving God.
*Benny I am simply saying what the word of god says, believing is a choice, an act of your will, you do not have to have the holy spirit to do something.
1. You are right here. Nobody needs the Holy Spirit to write a letter, to drive a car, to speak with a friend, to buy some groceries... We can DO things without the Spirit. But if we are doing them with the Spirit (that wouldn't be the Spirit doing things but the Spirit influencing us while we do things), we would do it differently, agree on that?
2. If believing is an act of man's will, what do you do with bible passages like:
John 1:13:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Eph 1:5:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
How do they fit in your system?
What I must do to enter the family of God? I can do nothing, all that is done is done by Him. I can only praise Him for saving me afterwards. But what is done to me when I'm born again one can read in John 3:2-8:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3�Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4�Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5�Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6�That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7�Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8�The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
It's a pity English bibles make a difference between wind and Spirit here, Germans don't and in Greek it's all the same word: Pneuma. Maybe this helps to clear things up.
And it also makes sense in the use of words to say I do nothing to be born again, for born is a passive form of "to bear", and I do not bear myself. Neither did I bear myself when I was born of flesh, but my mother bore me, nor did I bear myself when coming to faith, it was Him who bore me.
Otherwise I could take pride in being born again and speak to others: Look ye, I am born again, I have done all the Lord wanted me to do, so I go to heaven and you all will burn in hell. I must say that I have often met people with such an attitude, and it hurts to see how they do not follow the Lords commandments, as they do not show love.
If I had done anything to be born again, I could teach others to be born again, but there is no teacher but Christ (Mt 23:10):
Nor are you to be called 'teacher', for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
@Ella:
So you would say one can measure faith? Like some have a half faith, others two thirds etc...? I would say, from my first understanding, that faith was the same everywhere, but that people did grow in faith differently. I also wouldn't say we use our faith, as I don't think of faith as a tool, but as a condition we are under. If we are happy, we behave differently from when we are sad. And if we are nder faith, we behave differently then when we are not under faith. More or less like this.
I wold also not say that God is bound by granting blessings to our deeds, because I think of God as giving blessings for free, and sometimes holding blessings back. His ways are higher than ours, and I do not think that there was a rule we could make up on how God gives blessings. For Job has not been said to have done anything wrong in the eyes of the Lord, but still He took His blessings from him.
Of course I know about Jesus speaking of faith as small as a mustard seed, and I am aware it does not quite fit into my line of thought. I think of it as Jesus meaning strength in faith. The faith is the same, though some grow stronger in it. Maybe you would say, some learn to use it better...
But after all, all faith is the same, to believe (in German those two words are the same, I think in Greek it's also both "pistis") in Jesus Christ dying on the cross for our salvation, to reconcile us with God.
As the deeds we do, including moving mountains, depend on our mind, what we think, what we plan to do, I guess the difference between big and small faith, as you might say it, is ion how far the faith got through to our mind. So we know something for true, but it takes time to draw the consequences. Hope you understand what I mean...
Abot bringing faith to action: I'd rather say, that whatever we do, and no one is not doing any action at all, it will be faith brought to action if we have faith, and nonfaith brought to action if we have no faith. Can you do something without faith when you have faith, can you do something that is uninfluenced by your faith? I mean not theoretically, theoretically God could be an illusion and the athists could be right, I mean in reality. Can you really do something that is independent from your faith?
@Mark:
Thanks for your testimony. In my case it was different. After understanding the sacrifice of Jesus, I had no chance but to believe it. I also have never been not a christian, although I haven't been brought up in a too pious household, we never went to church on sundays for example, bt I knew there was God. Before understanding the sacrifice, I thoght it would be okay if I was just a good guy. After understanding the sacrifice, I knew that it had nothing to do with or deeds, because it it was for deeds, we'd all be doomed.
In that very moment when it became clear to me, I had no chance to say: No, I still believe being a good guy suffices to go to heaven (and of course I thought of myself as being a good guy)...
