Paul teaches clearly that it is only when salvation is attributed to undeserved election that we can know god saves who he wills of his own good pleasure.he is under obligation to no one.When paul states that we werre "chosen in christ before the foundation of the world (eph.1,4)he makes it clear that there is no regard for our own worth.We were adopted into heavenly inheritance in christ because in ourselves we are incapable of such attainment.Elsewhere he tells the collossians to give thanks that they had been made fit to share in the inheritance of the saints(col.1;12) If election comes before the divine grace wich makes us fit for immortal life,what does god see in us to persuade him to elect us?Another passage makes this even clearer.God "chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through jesus christ,in accordance with his pleasure and will(eph.1;4-5)good works are never taken into account.Paul makes this clear.God has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.this grace was given us in christ jesus before the beginning of time (2 Tim.1;9)
Do you seek to understand what I say or do you seek to find something in my postings you can proof wrong?
Christ is the same in every nation, but every person is different, every place on earth has its own culture, this includes ways to express what people think.
For people who do not eat bread or maybe don't even know it, it might be useless teaching them to pray "give us today our dayly bread". It's the idea behind the text surface, that's important. That's what I mean.
The idea behind it is the same, the text surface changes (if you look at an arabian bibe you maybe won't be able to read it, but you know the message it contains).
People can understand the text surface differently, we can get through to the meaning only trough th Holy Spirit guiding us. And that is not our decision. The Spirit blows where He likes!
And once we have seen the message behind, we have no choice. There might be the theoretical construct of a choice, like a starving person being showed a meal cn choose to eat it or not, but if there is no reason to eat it not, he won't deny it.
And there is no reason to deny the gospel, so once you've understood it, hwo can you possibly deny it? That's what I mean when I say, I had no choice.
What you say about rejecting Jesus because I do not worship the text surface of the bible (maybe even a certain translation of the bible and others not) appears to me to be some useless side discussion.
What is the use of the bible other than be a tool to the Holy Spirit to show us the gospel? Of course, we need to be shown it again and again, because we are still hmans and so sinners, and we will forget about the gospel after a while if we are not shown again.
But once we see it, we have no choice but to accept it and be grateful to the Lord. But grateful to the Lord, for dying for us, and to the Holy Spirit, for showing us the truth. But not thankful to the bible. That would be like thanking the ploughshare for ploughing the acre without thinking about the ox and the farmer who did the actual work.
Do you understand me, PhillipJohn, are you trying to understand what I mean? Or are you looking for how to proof one of the sentences wrong in a certain way of understanding it. Please, speak to me, not to the text I write.
The bible says out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh, yes I understand clearly and see clearly because obey the word of god brings light.
Men resist the Gospel all the time, it is nothing new
Friends unless Jesus is in us the bible is just a book.We need the holy spirit to bring the book to life. A book is dead unlees the spirit brings it to life in us. read this a few times.Think about it.
The bible says the word is alive: you either believe it or you don't.
You will not find any place in the bible or written word that says it is dead.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
How many dead seeds produce anything?
Not only does the word tell us it is alive, it is also spirit:Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
0 � My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.
23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
You see if accept James as it is the word of God and it is true
most people do not realize that simple truth, but truth is truth none the less. no that verse totally disagrees with reformed theology.
Where is your Biblical evidence that says that we have the ABILITY to choose Christ, and WHERE is your evidence that we have the ABILITY to reject Him?
I find it bizarre that you would quote anything in John 6 and then act like the flesh DOES profit for something!
Eph. 2:8,9 says that faith itself if a gift from God.
The entire chapter of John 6 is Jesus TEACHING US that NO ONE CAN, no one has the ability to come to Him UNLESS....God Himself draws that person!
Since we have probably twenty verses saying that fallen mankind is enslaved to sin, and totally spiritually dead, and that NO ONE will EVER repent and trust in Jesus UNLESS GOD FIRST, puts a new heart in them, then why don't you just skip to the part where you tell us what you don't like about God as it is written in Scripture.
Do you think it is wrong for God to chose His own people to draw to Himself? He did that with the Jews first. Do you think that was wrong? Do you think that it is wrong that God did not decide to save everyone? You can be honest here. This is a Christian website, and I will take your word that you ARE a Christian, and I hope you will take my word that I too, am a Christian.
So far, you have given zero Biblical evidence that "Reformed theology and Christianity are not the same".
What Biblical evidence leads you to believe that Arminianism is true.
Arminians are divided over the question of can a true Christian lose their salvation.
But they agree on the other four points>
1.Mankind did not lose freewill and still has the ability to choose Jesus on their own.
2. God only "chooses" a person and writes their name in the book of life, because God looked into the future and saw that they would repent and have faith.
3. Jesus died for everyone, and his death did not actually pay for the sins of anyone.
4. God's grace can be resisted.
What verses of Scripture lead you to believe that any of those four points are true?
I would have to disagree with you, my evidence is the word of God, word is the word of Calvin. thought I had made that clear. Sorry for this miscommunication.
Okay PhillipJohn, I got it. You are the flawless believer and I am a lost and will burn in hell. Sorry for trying to talk with you, I see it clearer and clearer now that you are not following the same God as I do, for I follow the living God, while you seem to follow the surface of a text.
You have your god in your pocket, it's a book that you have shown many times you can master well, as to bring about verses that back up what you think.
My God in return is not a God anyone can put in his pocket or master, my God is alive and surprises me ever again and again. I seek to understand Him but have not yet, I cannot say I would know all about Him, I do not say that I could judge whether someone is following Him or not, for I have not yet fully understood Him, and I think I never will in this life.
My God plays a role in my life, as that of an independent entity. It is not up to my desicion to read a text whether my God steps into my life.
If you don't read your text, it seems to me, your god is not in your life at that time an has no chance to be stepping in. You control Him, and whenever you have other things in mind your god has no chance to talk to you. You have to take up your text and read your god for your god to be able to do anything. Basically it's your acting here, and not your go, for you master your god.
So we are of different faiths, we follow different masters. You go on follow your text, but for my part, I shall not leave the paths of the living God, my Lord and my saviour, unmasterable, high above all creation and all attempts to fix Him to a principle for the sake of overthrowing Him.
He will prevail over all false gods that are worshipped though they are part of creation and not creator themselves, and all knees shall bow before Him.
@dgrimater:
I completely agree with what you say abot the bible being just a book without the Hoy Spirit. Thi is what I am trying to say all the time.
@James:
I am not too deep into the Calvinism vs. Arminianism thing, that seems to be of importance for the Netherands and following them other Calvinist/Reformed churches in the USA...
But thank you for bringing up the bible evidence. Tough I doubt this plays a role. For if you read the bible without the Holy Spirit, chances are you master that book so well that you can twist around everything that comes in your way and make it fit to your own wishes...
